Defining "Bronstein" in the US Chess rulebook

[wintdoan]

@Micah Smith

I agree that the wording in the FIDE arbiters manual could be improved. This is why for the TD Tip in the US Chess rulebook, we should go with the wording I proposed earlier in this thread, which I restate below with a few minor tweaks.

“TD Tip: There are two different forms of delay, “simple” delay (also commonly referred to in countries outside the United States as “US” delay since this form of delay originated and is mainly used in the US) and Bronstein delay, named after GM David Bronstein who invited this form of delay. Both are mathematically equivalent, equally acceptable for use under the rules, and just differ in how the delay is displayed on the screen. “Simple” delay, the more commonly used method in the US, shows the delay time separately from the main time, often by showing the delay countdown in digits or having something like the colons or the word “delay” flash each second during the delay time. Bronstein delay adds the delay time to the main time on the screen. If a player uses the entire delay time or more for a move, the clock will add the delay time to the main time. If a player uses less than the delay time for a move, the clock will go back to the time it had at the beginning of the move. The advantage of simple delay is that the player can always tell whether the delay time or the main time is counting down and the advantage of Bronstein delay is that the player can easily see how much total time they have remaining without having to mentally add the delay to the base time. The fact that the main time will never go above what it was at the beginning of a move with Bronstein delay is what makes it different from increment. With increment, (also commonly known as Fischer, after World Champion Bobby Fischer who patented this timing method, and bonus), the increment time is added to the main time each turn, regardless of the amount of time it took the player to move.”

That’s at least twice as long as it needs to be.

[Micah_Smith]

@wintdoan

@Micah Smith

I agree that the wording in the FIDE arbiters manual could be improved. This is why for the TD Tip in the US Chess rulebook, we should go with the wording I proposed earlier in this thread, which I restate below with a few minor tweaks.

“TD Tip: There are two different forms of delay, “simple” delay (also commonly referred to in countries outside the United States as “US” delay since this form of delay originated and is mainly used in the US) and Bronstein delay, named after GM David Bronstein who invited this form of delay. Both are mathematically equivalent, equally acceptable for use under the rules, and just differ in how the delay is displayed on the screen. “Simple” delay, the more commonly used method in the US, shows the delay time separately from the main time, often by showing the delay countdown in digits or having something like the colons or the word “delay” flash each second during the delay time. Bronstein delay adds the delay time to the main time on the screen. If a player uses the entire delay time or more for a move, the clock will add the delay time to the main time. If a player uses less than the delay time for a move, the clock will go back to the time it had at the beginning of the move. The advantage of simple delay is that the player can always tell whether the delay time or the main time is counting down and the advantage of Bronstein delay is that the player can easily see how much total time they have remaining without having to mentally add the delay to the base time. The fact that the main time will never go above what it was at the beginning of a move with Bronstein delay is what makes it different from increment. With increment, (also commonly known as Fischer, after World Champion Bobby Fischer who patented this timing method, and bonus), the increment time is added to the main time each turn, regardless of the amount of time it took the player to move.”

That’s at least twice as long as it needs to be.

How would you suggest trimming it down?

[wintdoan]

@Micah Smith

@wintdoan

@Micah Smith

I agree that the wording in the FIDE arbiters manual could be improved. This is why for the TD Tip in the US Chess rulebook, we should go with the wording I proposed earlier in this thread, which I restate below with a few minor tweaks.

“TD Tip: There are two different forms of delay, “simple” delay (also commonly referred to in countries outside the United States as “US” delay since this form of delay originated and is mainly used in the US) and Bronstein delay, named after GM David Bronstein who invited this form of delay. Both are mathematically equivalent, equally acceptable for use under the rules, and just differ in how the delay is displayed on the screen. “Simple” delay, the more commonly used method in the US, shows the delay time separately from the main time, often by showing the delay countdown in digits or having something like the colons or the word “delay” flash each second during the delay time. Bronstein delay adds the delay time to the main time on the screen. If a player uses the entire delay time or more for a move, the clock will add the delay time to the main time. If a player uses less than the delay time for a move, the clock will go back to the time it had at the beginning of the move. The advantage of simple delay is that the player can always tell whether the delay time or the main time is counting down and the advantage of Bronstein delay is that the player can easily see how much total time they have remaining without having to mentally add the delay to the base time. The fact that the main time will never go above what it was at the beginning of a move with Bronstein delay is what makes it different from increment. With increment, (also commonly known as Fischer, after World Champion Bobby Fischer who patented this timing method, and bonus), the increment time is added to the main time each turn, regardless of the amount of time it took the player to move.”

That’s at least twice as long as it needs to be.

How would you suggest trimming it down?

Using a saw rather than pruning shears.

[nolan]

Hey, Micah has progressed to the point where he uses 10 words when 2 will do, introducing confusion and ambiguity at the same time. He’s on the road to becoming a successful politician.

[nolan]

Bill, considering that when I was in Turin in 2006 FIDE just barely acknowledged that delay time controls even existed, is this progress?

[Micah_Smith]

@wintdoan

@Micah Smith

@wintdoan

@Micah Smith

I agree that the wording in the FIDE arbiters manual could be improved. This is why for the TD Tip in the US Chess rulebook, we should go with the wording I proposed earlier in this thread, which I restate below with a few minor tweaks.

“TD Tip: There are two different forms of delay, “simple” delay (also commonly referred to in countries outside the United States as “US” delay since this form of delay originated and is mainly used in the US) and Bronstein delay, named after GM David Bronstein who invited this form of delay. Both are mathematically equivalent, equally acceptable for use under the rules, and just differ in how the delay is displayed on the screen. “Simple” delay, the more commonly used method in the US, shows the delay time separately from the main time, often by showing the delay countdown in digits or having something like the colons or the word “delay” flash each second during the delay time. Bronstein delay adds the delay time to the main time on the screen. If a player uses the entire delay time or more for a move, the clock will add the delay time to the main time. If a player uses less than the delay time for a move, the clock will go back to the time it had at the beginning of the move. The advantage of simple delay is that the player can always tell whether the delay time or the main time is counting down and the advantage of Bronstein delay is that the player can easily see how much total time they have remaining without having to mentally add the delay to the base time. The fact that the main time will never go above what it was at the beginning of a move with Bronstein delay is what makes it different from increment. With increment, (also commonly known as Fischer, after World Champion Bobby Fischer who patented this timing method, and bonus), the increment time is added to the main time each turn, regardless of the amount of time it took the player to move.”

That’s at least twice as long as it needs to be.

How would you suggest trimming it down?

Using a saw rather than pruning shears.

Please explain what you would take out of my proposed TD Tip.

[Micah_Smith]

@nolan

Hey, Micah has progressed to the point where he uses 10 words when 2 will do, introducing confusion and ambiguity at the same time. He’s on the road to becoming a successful politician.

Please explain how my proposed TD Tip is confusing and ambiguous.

[Smythe_Dakota]

@nolan

Bill, considering that when I was in Turin in 2006 FIDE just barely acknowledged that delay time controls even existed, is this progress?

I suppose so, yes.

I’m just wondering whether this “new” FIDE wording is compatible with existing FIDE rules, or did they change the latter as well?

The following are excerpts from the FIDE glossary:

Bronstein mode: See delay mode.
cumulative (Fischer) mode: Where a player receives an extra amount of time (often 30 seconds) prior to each move.
delay (Bronstein) mode: Both payers receive an allotted “main thinking time”. Each player also receives a “fixed extra time” with every move. The countdown of the main thinking time only commences after the fixed extra time has expired. Provided the player presses his clock before the expiration of the fixed extra time, the main thinking time does not change, irrespective of the proportion of the fixed extra time used.
Fischer mode: See cumulative mode.
increment: An amount of time (from 2 to 60 seconds) added from the start before each move for the player. This can be in either delay or cumulative mode.

How much of the above has changed, or should change? In particular, the last sentence of the last one seems clearly at odds with the “new” terminology.

Other areas within the FIDE rules may require changes, as well. Such as:

Guidelines III. Games without increment including Quickplay Finishes:
10.2.2. These Guidelines shall apply only to … games without increment …

Would this be the “old” increment, or the “new” increment?

Because of all the above, right now I’m concerned more about whether FIDE has its house in order, and not so much about the wording in a U.S. Chess TD Tip.

Bill Smythe

[wintdoan]

@Micah Smith

@wintdoan

@Micah Smith

@wintdoan

@Micah Smith

I agree that the wording in the FIDE arbiters manual could be improved. This is why for the TD Tip in the US Chess rulebook, we should go with the wording I proposed earlier in this thread, which I restate below with a few minor tweaks.

“TD Tip: There are two different forms of delay, “simple” delay (also commonly referred to in countries outside the United States as “US” delay since this form of delay originated and is mainly used in the US) and Bronstein delay, named after GM David Bronstein who invited this form of delay. Both are mathematically equivalent, equally acceptable for use under the rules, and just differ in how the delay is displayed on the screen. “Simple” delay, the more commonly used method in the US, shows the delay time separately from the main time, often by showing the delay countdown in digits or having something like the colons or the word “delay” flash each second during the delay time. Bronstein delay adds the delay time to the main time on the screen. If a player uses the entire delay time or more for a move, the clock will add the delay time to the main time. If a player uses less than the delay time for a move, the clock will go back to the time it had at the beginning of the move. The advantage of simple delay is that the player can always tell whether the delay time or the main time is counting down and the advantage of Bronstein delay is that the player can easily see how much total time they have remaining without having to mentally add the delay to the base time. The fact that the main time will never go above what it was at the beginning of a move with Bronstein delay is what makes it different from increment. With increment, (also commonly known as Fischer, after World Champion Bobby Fischer who patented this timing method, and bonus), the increment time is added to the main time each turn, regardless of the amount of time it took the player to move.”

That’s at least twice as long as it needs to be.

How would you suggest trimming it down?

Using a saw rather than pruning shears.

Please explain what you would take out of my proposed TD Tip.

Most of it. If a sentence or clause doesn’t help to resolve confusion, get rid of it. This looks like a college essay answer written by someone who didn’t really understand the question and threw every fact that might bear on the topic into it.

[dennisk]

I would like to point out that while David Bronstein may have invented the form of delay named after him, it makes no sense at all to say that he invited it.

[relyea]

Someone once pointed out to me, shortly after Sevan Muradian passed, that the greatest loss to the chess community was his influence in writing rules and this type of document. Now they don’t say what they mean in clear English. FIDE documents are Kevin Bachler’s “secret handshake” on steroids. Mr. Nolan is right that many of these statements don’t make a lot of sense unless you already know what they mean.

Alex Relyea

[Micah_Smith]

@relyea

Someone once pointed out to me, shortly after Sevan Muradian passed, that the greatest loss to the chess community was his influence in writing rules and this type of document. Now they don’t say what they mean in clear English. FIDE documents are Kevin Bachler’s “secret handshake” on steroids. Mr. Nolan is right that many of these statements don’t make a lot of sense unless you already know what they mean.

Alex Relyea

This isn’t only a problem in FIDE. US Chess has this same problem as well.

[relyea]

@Micah Smith

@relyea

Someone once pointed out to me, shortly after Sevan Muradian passed, that the greatest loss to the chess community was his influence in writing rules and this type of document. Now they don’t say what they mean in clear English. FIDE documents are Kevin Bachler’s “secret handshake” on steroids. Mr. Nolan is right that many of these statements don’t make a lot of sense unless you already know what they mean.

Alex Relyea

This isn’t only a problem in FIDE. US Chess has this same problem as well.

Yes. US Chess is the reason Mr. Bachler coined the phrase (perhaps I should say adapted). My point was that it is even worse with FIDE.

Alex Relyea

[nolan]

One thing you have to remember about FIDE rule-making is that not everyone has English as their primary language.

[relyea]

@nolan

One thing you have to remember about FIDE rule-making is that not everyone has English as their primary language.

Which gets back to my point about Mr. Muradian.

Alex Relyea

[Smythe_Dakota]

Indeed, I noticed a huge improvement in FIDE rule writing starting about two decades ago, followed by a decline in more recent years. Now I can see that these two trends coincide closely with, respectively, with the rise of Sevan Muradian within FIDE, and his untimely death more recently.

I thank Alex Relyea for pointing out to all of us that the simultaneity of these two sets of events was no coincidence.

Bill Smythe

[Smythe_Dakota]

@Micah Smith

I agree that the wording in the FIDE arbiters manual could be improved. This is why for the TD Tip in the US Chess rulebook, we should go with the wording I proposed earlier in this thread …

@In response

That’s at least twice as long as it needs to be.

You could both be right.

In order to create a TD Tip that includes everything that should have been in the main rules – that way no Delegate action would be required – Micah has created a monster.

It would be better to explain the details of increment and delay more thoroughly, and in a more relaxed manner, in the main body of the rules. Then the TD Tip could be much shorter, or perhaps it wouldn’t be necessary at all.

From time to time the rules committee does have discussions about how various rules could be improved. These tend to reach a fever pitch just before the August delegates’ meetings. It seems likely to me that rule 5 (in general) could come up in these discussions.

Bill Smythe

[Allen]

Then there is also the thought that every single derail doesn’t need explaining. The attempt to do that makes rules bloated and unreadable.

[relyea]

@Allen

Then there is also the thought that every single derail doesn’t need explaining. The attempt to do that makes rules bloated and unreadable.

And unfollowable. TD discretion is often a good thing. Even if a TD abuses it, it can be a learning opportunity.

Alex Relyea

P.S. Can you imagine the results of an attempt to codify what exactly is (and, by implication, is not) annoying behavior?

[Micah_Smith]

@Smythe Dakota

In order to create a TD Tip that includes everything that should have been in the main rules – that way no Delegate action would be required – Micah has created a monster.

It would be better to explain the details of increment and delay more thoroughly, and in a more relaxed manner, in the main body of the rules. Then the TD Tip could be much shorter, or perhaps it wouldn’t be necessary at all.

I agree with all of this but in my experience getting a TD Tip added to the rulebook is a lot easier then getting a delegate to sponsor an ADM to change the wording in the main rules.

@Allen

Then there is also the thought that every single derail doesn’t need explaining. The attempt to do that makes rules bloated and unreadable.

I agree with this but in the case of delay and increment, I think it would be beneficial if they were explained better in the rulebook.

On a semi-related note, I’ve suggested eliminating a lot of the stuff in the second TD Tip after rule 5C since it just repeats what is stated in rule 5C.