MSA crosstable formats -- a dream thread

[Mulfish]

@Smythe Dakota

Quiz questions regarding the above post:

1. Why did I lump all the colors together, e.g. wbw, instead of including each round’s color in with the result and opponent number?

2. Why did I use lower case wbw instead of uppercase WBW?

3. If the viewer chooses single-line format, but the tournament is dual-rated, where do all the ratings go?

4. Should columns be suppressed if they are empty? For example, if no colors are listed for any games, should the “colors” column be suppressed?

5. Should the viewer be allowed to suppress certain columns, even if they are not empty? Examples might include ID numbers, colors, norms, etc.

I’m hoping for some good answers from you guys.

Bill Smythe

1. Separating the color from the opponent makes it easier to see the color patterns and what color a player was due for.
2. I presume because you consider it more readable (I agree) and oerhaps the way you intend to display byes might be a factor too.
   I don’t really have an opinion on the other three questions.

[Smythe_Dakota]

@Mulfish

1. Separating the color from the opponent makes it easier to see the color patterns and what color a player was due for.

Precisely. Plus, it avoids confusion between W for win and W for white.

2. I presume because you consider it more readable …

True, but there is another reason. It avoids confusion between W for win and W for white.

I would really like the commercial programs (WinTD and SwissSys) to adopt some of these ideas, too. A single-line option for printing standings would be nice if it could show colors as well as pairings and results. And having a separate “colors” column, with entries like “wbw”, would be a nice uncluttered addition.

Bill Smythe

[wzim]

I would like to see the ability to click on an opponents name and see your record against that player.

[nolan]

You mean like this:

uschess.org/datapage/gamesta … l=12534271

[wzim]

@nolan

You mean like this:

uschess.org/datapage/gamesta … l=12534271

and or like this showing total count
uschess.org/datapage/gamestats.php

Years ago I created a page for our local club to get to this info
gpcf.net/USCFCompare.htm

So I knew the info was available.

I’m (Since we are dreaming) suggesting it as a direct option on the msa page itself.

[nolan]

I looked at the MSA crosstable code, there’s no logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against a specific opponent on the crosstable itself. (The opponent’s name or ID don’t even appear on the row with your results, just the pairing number.)

[wzim]

@nolan

I looked at the MSA crosstable code, there’s no logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against a specific opponent on the crosstable itself. (The opponent’s name or ID don’t even appear on the row with your results, just the pairing number.)

But from the pairing number shouldn’t you be able to deduce the opponent name and id? Take the pairing number and re-scan the table data etc. Remember we are just dreaming here.

[nolan]

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just pointed out that the only opponent information on the crosstable at the moment is the pairing number, and that doesn’t strike me as a logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against that individual, since it doesn’t give that person’s name or ID.

A better possibility might be to put it in the drill down page for your games in an event. Click on your pairing number on the far left. (BTW, this drill down page doesn’t include color information, and I’m not sure where to put it, possibly in another column in between result and opponent’s total score.)

Right now if you click on the opponent’s name on that drill down page, it will take you to that player’s MSA record. Clicking on your opponent’s ID could be modified to take you to a head-to-head record, though that still wouldn’t be an obvious result of that action, so adding a note at the bottom to explain what the two links do might be helpful.

[wzim]

@nolan

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just pointed out that the only opponent information on the crosstable at the moment is the pairing number, and that doesn’t strike me as a logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against that individual, since it doesn’t give that person’s name or ID.

A better possibility might be to put it in the drill down page for your games in an event. Click on your pairing number on the far left. (BTW, this drill down page doesn’t include color information, and I’m not sure where to put it, possibly in another column in between result and opponent’s total score.)

Right now if you click on the opponent’s name on that drill down page, it will take you to that player’s MSA record. Clicking on your opponent’s ID could be modified to take you to a head-to-head record, though that still wouldn’t be an obvious result of that action, so adding a note at the bottom to explain what the two links do might be helpful.

Maybe not initially obvious, but it would be a convenient location for the user. I imagine a lot of players simply use the cross table section to view what their rating change was, a few additional clicks and information that could also be located otherwise but easily done from that location. Multiple ways of accessing and doings things isn’t necessarily wrong. (The real question is where do you draw the line? For example now give me head to head for just the last x games. )

[kevin_bachler]

@wzim

I would like to see the ability to click on an opponents name and see your record against that player.

There are variants on this theme that may also make sense. Like right-clicking or hovering on the crosstable result cell, and having the name pop-up with various options, including producing a list of overall results.

[kevin_bachler]

@nolan

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just pointed out that the only opponent information on the crosstable at the moment is the pairing number, and that doesn’t strike me as a logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against that individual, since it doesn’t give that person’s name or ID.

A better possibility might be to put it in the drill down page for your games in an event. Click on your pairing number on the far left. (BTW, this drill down page doesn’t include color information, and I’m not sure where to put it, possibly in another column in between result and opponent’s total score.)

Right now if you click on the opponent’s name on that drill down page, it will take you to that player’s MSA record. Clicking on your opponent’s ID could be modified to take you to a head-to-head record, though that still wouldn’t be an obvious result of that action, so adding a note at the bottom to explain what the two links do might be helpful.

Why should someone have to deduce who the opponent is? Mouse-hover over the cell, and have a box appear that shows the opponent information. In that box, offer contextual options including “Show overall head-to-head results” - probably in reverse chronological order.

[nolan]

That’s a task for the upcoming complete rewrite of MSA.

I’ve added color to the drill down page and a link to the head-to-head record against each opponent, that will have to do for now.

[kevin_bachler]

@nolan

That’s a task for the upcoming complete rewrite of MSA.

I’ve added color to the drill down page and a link to the head-to-head record against each opponent, that will have to do for now.

Hey, and I think you did a great job with limited resources getting things to where they are. If inadvertently any of my comments about things we can do to continue to forge ahead sound like complaints about where we’ve been and the great work that’s been done, then I sincerely apologize.

[Smythe_Dakota]

@wzim

But from the pairing number shouldn’t you be able to deduce the opponent name and id? …

@In response

Why should someone have to deduce who the opponent is? …

I suspect that wzim was suggesting that the MSA software should be able to deduce the opponent name and ID, so that the viewer wouldn’t have to.

Bill Smythe

[Smythe_Dakota]

@nolan

That’s a task for the upcoming complete rewrite of MSA. …

@In response

Hey, and I think you did a great job with limited resources getting things to where they are. …

Amen to both of those thoughts. Nolan did a great job bringing U.S. Chess into, at least, the last 5 years of the 20th century, which was quite an accomplishment. And now, with the rewrite, all sorts of good new ideas are possible.

Bill Smythe