Mr. Forsythe you are very fortunate, and perhaps the situation in Michigan is very different than it is in Oklahoma, where RagingHell and I are based. Let me assure you that, at least in adult tournaments, forfeits occur at the rate of much greater than one per thousand games. In January 2004 the state champion even forfeited a game. Clearly here, and presumably where the topic starter lives as well, this is an issue, if not a problem, and I’m glad that it isn’t in Michigan.
Alex Relyea
ok. you may not have problem with forfeits, but the person who originally posted is having trouble so our suggestions are aimed at her.
you assume players will be annoyed. if i as a player can hand over $30 to sign up, handing over $35 is just as easy, and as i walk out i get a $5 bill back. why is this a hassle?
as players walk out after last round (or during last round) simply give them $5 and check off their name to indicate they were refunded. no need to verify they paid this deposit because everyone paid it. what paperwork??? the addresses for those that want it mailed will be on the pairing card anyway. since forfeits are very few like you say, then you only have a few checks to mail.
you’re right, people who forfeit games probably dont care about forfeiting $5, but you brought up the issue that it wont be ethical to keep the money. for this reason they can have it mailed to them less $1 for stamp, envelope, and check.
if a TD is having no problem with forfeits then i wouldnt change a thing, but if there is a problem then this is just one suggestion that is simple and hassle free and as others have already posted works to eliminate or decrease forfeits. as a player, and as a TD i see no problem or hassle.
The best case for a forfeit, was the forfeit of the 2nd game (7.16.1972) of the Fischer - Spassky 1972 World Championship match. If it was not for Spassky, organizers and members of the Soviet Union wanted the match forfeited to Spassky. Five dollars would not have made a difference with the second game.
The Official Rules of Chess, an organic body of spirit and faith. The rules are designed, to form a common practice of events that will happen during the course of the game. With the rules that are broken, the rights of punnishment for a clear and present finding of facts, granted onto the director for the standard penalty.
The rules of chess are not designed, to provent a penalty … only the punnishment of a standard penalty. When the players flag falls, the standard penalty is the cost of the game. The flag can fall for a number of reasons, total time expired … did not make the number of moves needed during the time control … was over an hour late from the start of the round.
The organizer can make some proventing rules, like proventing draws or proventing forfeits. What other proventing rules can organizers or directors want. If as an organizer, I hate players that lose the game because the flag falls. Would a player fight for a draw with only 30 seconds on the clock, if it would cost the player $5 if the flag falls. I too can think of proventing rules, and were do we stop with expanding the scope of the Official Rules of Chess. If its’ not a standing rule, not going to expand on the Official Rules of Chess.
I dont think you get it. if you as a TD hate it when players lose because the flag fell that is your personal opinion. whether or not you like players losing on time has no adverse effect on others. players losing on time does not inconvenience anyone. if a player doesnt manage time well and it runs out on him he should lose.
if a player just doesnt show up that will inconvenience the players who show up to play, the TD having to possibly do pairings again, could mess up the schedule, and is just plain inconsiderate to not let the TD know in advance.
what we’re trying to prevent is something that negatively affects the tournament. your flag falling issue is just something you dont like (like a friend of mine doesnt like players moving with their left hand, he says its weird). its just a personal dislike that doesnt mess with the tournament.
For a player that wins with a forfeit, it is an inconvenience. With a player with a performance rating, it is more of a inconvenience as the game will not count to become an established player. The pairings for the next round, can be wrong with the wrong results posted, or a withdraw at the last minute. If a player forfeits without being at the board, will withdraw the player before the start of the next round.
Forfeiting a game without withdrawing is going to happen with or without a $5 fee. There are a number of reasons why a player will forfeit a game, a personal emergency, even your personal death will provent your being at the round on time. The $5 fee will not stop forfeiting of games, as most forfeiting was not done with malice. If a player informing myself the reason for the forfeiting of the game as malice, as the player did not want to be paired up with the other player because of personal reasons. If the personal reason are in a matter of hate, hate of the other players social standings – would be willing to expell the player from all my events.
Having all the players pay a $5 fee, just to get a re-fund at the end of the event, for not forfeiting is a inconvenience for the director and the players. Lets try it this way, since the USCF rating department can track players games. The USCF can change a $5 fee with the membership, if you do not forfeit a game during the time you are a member in good standing, you will get your $5 re-fund when you stop being a member. If you are a life member, your family members will get the $5 re-fund when they mail a certified death certificate. If it would not work with everyone, it would not work with a single tournament.
Forsythe no one is denying you the right to have an opinion. The original poster inquired about suggestions to reduce forfeits. I suggested the 5$ refund. Which to you may be an inconvenience. For many other TDs and players it causes no emotion of inconvenience whatsoever. It certainly is not going to stop all players from forfeiting. However, it will cause some to not forfeit. Many times it’s just the slightest tilt on whether a player shows up and plays or forfeits because they have been playing badly(the most common cause!) or some other reason. I have only outright forfeitted once, and it handed the class C Texas state championship to a player along with the prize(I would have crushed his soul 
). It was do to several unfortunate tournament events that happened to a friend of mine that we were upset about. As for 5$ i might have still forfeited, but i would have certainly thought about it. If it were 10$(and this was a big tournament) I am almost positive that i would have played, or at the very, very, very, least came to a decision on whether i was going to play before the pairings went up and advised the TD. Either case actually i would have made my decision before the pairings if i had an incentive to make the decision. Many players are no different.
This is so much fun to watch Douglas stir you guys up that I hate to say it’s not going to do any good to go around with him on this, but it’s true.
Once he gets going on something he is willing to spin some of the most fantastic scenarios ever seen in a chess tournament just to make his point.
Concede that he can do whatever he wants about “proventing” (whatever that means) forfeits, do what you think the best practice is for you, and let it go. You’ll sleep easier.
Radishes
The only way to reduced forfeits, would use rule 13G. Most directors will only eject the player from the event. Directors can fine the player, and bannishment from any events till the fine is paid in full. It still needs the player breaking rule 22a.
If the event has a entry fee of $75, with it being one of the most important events in the state. If the organizer is the state chapter, the state chapter will have a number of events in a given year. If you forfeited due to nonappearance, can be fined up to the cost of the entry fee of $75. If you do not want to pay the fine, can be bannished from any of the state chapter events till the fine is paid in full.
There is no need to have new rules, only enforce the rules on the books. Have talked to some directors about fines under rule 13G, never had one willing to use rule 13G with fines up to the entry fee or bannishment from the events.
If having an event with a entry fee of $75, with a re-entry fee of $40. If a person forfeited due to nonappearance, then wants to play in the next round. Can order a fine of $75, plus a re-entry fee of $40, making the cost to play in the next round $115 (all under rule 13G). Having the power to eject a player, willing to charge a re-entry fee if you want to play. Having the power to order a fine up to the cost of the entry fee, if you want to play you got to pay the fine.
13G. Players must give notice if withdrawing or skipping a round. A play who does not notify the tournament director well in advance of the inability to play in any round and then defaults the game under 13D, Late arrival for the game, may be ejected from the tournament, and may be fined a sum up to the amount of the entry fee, payable to the organizer. The player may be barred from any of the organizer’s tournaments until the fine is paid. On request, the player may be retained in or readmitted to the tournament at the director’s discretion.
If someone forfeited game two for nonappearance, and it cost the player $115 to play for the rest of the tournament. How many players you think are going to forfeit any games during the rest of the event? Directors have that power, directors can use the rule like a NUKE going off in the tournament room.
Perhaps you don’t realize that there is no opportunity to eject most players as 90+% of all forfeits occur because the player is not planning to return to the tournament. They forfeit and are gone.
That is true, and if you have a fine you will never see them again. If you have a re-fund at the end of the event, it will not stop players from forfeiting. Having a re-fund, even if they did not forfeit a game, some would not care to hunt down the TD for the money. The only person that would love this idea of a re-fund would be the TD.
If the player did forfeit the game, the TD keeps the $5. So the player that wins the forfeiting game, gets to see the clock run for a hour. The TD wins $5, for only understanding the clock ran for a hour. If there was no $5 fee and re-fund, the player that wins the forfeiting game, still gets to see the clock run for a hour. So the player that wins a forfeiting game, there is no change for one system or the other. Only in one, have to chase down the TD to get the $5 re-fund at the end of the event. So the players in a $5 fee and re-fund are in a whole in a worst shape then no fee and re-fund.
Plan A:
Player A sets up board, turns the clock on and let it run for a hour. Player A wins the game with a forfeit win, packs up board and informs the TD of the win.
Plan B:
Player A gives the director the $5 fee, in the case player A forfeit a game. Player A sets up board, turns the clock on and let it run for a hour. Player A wins the game with a forfeit win, packs up board and informs the TD of the win. After the event, player A looks for the director for the $5 re-fund. Player A looks for the director, looking around the tournament hall for a few minutes. Player A can look harder to find the director, or skips the re-fund and go home.
Lets see, what plan is more simple for player A to accept?
the goal here is to REDUCE number of forfeits. for ex if 5 people were planning to forfeit i’m sure some will do it anyway even if they lose $5, but 1 or 2 of them will likely reconsider to not lose $5. others who have posted here have tried this and number of forfeits declined, so it does work. there is probably no perfect plan to completely eliminate forfeits, but all we’re trying to accomplish (because we’re being realistic) is to cut down number of forfeits.
returning $5 can easily be done, but people will always find an excuse. i’ve assisted in large tournaments (350+ players). would i have a problem walking down the aisle to hand over $5 to the players and simply check off names on a copy of the pairing sheet? no. and for those who are not at the table taking a walk, or a rest room break, or whatever i’ll just circle around again. oh, wait a minute. you might not like this, it takes effort and probably 30 minutes (yes it would be pretty quick to simply lay $5 next to a player and mark off a name on a sheet, even if theres 200 tables). i may not have 20 yrs experience but i do know how long it would take me to walk around and do this. if youre in a large tourney you will not be alone. if its a small tourney then you dont need assistance.
if this would reduce # of forfeits i and probably everyone i’ve worked with would easily take the extra effort.
its amazing how any little extra work is an “inconvenience” to some people.
I don’t see how $5 is a big deal.
Since most adults forfeit in tournaments, they’re saying they have something else better to do than play chess.
If you lose first round, why would you want to keep playing for a measly $5?
The people who would stay for the $5 are the same people who wouldn’t forfeit anyway.
If you gave someone an incentive by giving back their EF, they may stay, but anything lower than that is basically chump change. They don’t want to stick around for another 4-10 hours when they feel they have no chance of winning. $5 wont keep them there a minute later.
Thunderchicken, if a player doesnt want to stay they can leave and still get their $5. all they have to do is properly whithdraw by letting TD know. if a player is inconsiderate and just leaves without telling anyone then he/she would lose that $5. true, they may not care about $5, but its better for a TD (and their chess clubs treasury) for an inconsiderate player to fork over $5, than to just be inconsiderate without forking over anything. $5 is an extra set for the club, or maybe $5 here and there can pile up over time and be used for whatever without any hassle…
the $5 chump change might just decrease the number of forfeits, proper withdrawls are perfectly fine if player has no chance of winning and doesnt want to keep playing. remeber the original poster had problem with people not showing up without giving notice of any kind.
Ah, I see…
So you guys are saying not waiting until the last round, just say “I forfeit, gimme $5, see ya”.
That would make sense.
Mr. Forsythe is absolutely correct. There is no reason to have any policy any different at SuperNationals or at a local club quad. All tournaments should have exactly the same policies.
Presumably identical prizes, too.
i dont know about what others mean exactly, but it is what i mean. if a player withdraws properly by telling me in advance then this would not adversley affect the tournament. yeah, that player gets their refund. the small penalty of losing $5 would be made against those who withdraw without telling the TD because this is inconsiderate. some players, even if their out of the money, like to play all rounds because they enjoy chess so winning because someone forfeited is a disappointment to them.
this is aimed at preventing unnotified withdrawls/forfeits. a properly done withdrawl/forfeit is fine.
ok my last post regarding this. i guess every tourney will be run according to its needs. obviously no absolute right or wrong answer here.
I’m just guessing from my experience, it’s more of two day events where at the start on the 2nd day you run into problems. The same with pre-paid entries in the first round, which, as long as they’re paid, they’re entitled to be paired that round.
But it’s extremely rare that I’ve known of anyone that has just had someone walk out without telling the TD. It’s only happened to me once.
Each tournament is going to be different, even if its’ the same director and site. Having a event with a $5 fee and re-fund, with a event without a fee and re-fund – will change the judgement and matrix of the board. As the fee and re-fund could force the player to withdraw then forfeit the game. Being paired up with a player that would have forfeited the game, would be paired up with a different player if the player did withdraw. With the forfeit would have won a point, with a different pairing, will have a different player. The outcome of the board is different, as can win … draw … or lose. Even if its a win or a forfeit win, the difference of the rating will not be the same.
Making a rule to prevent a forfeit, will not always be for the best for each member in the tournament. Having a pairing with someone going to forfeit, or having a pairing with someone withdrawing will change each and every board.
One slight addition to the forfeit-deposit idea:
If you collect a forfeit deposit from a player, and then he forfeits without notice, give his forfeit deposit to the player to whom he forfeited. At least a small amount of justice is achieved in this way.
Bill Smythe
If the forfeit deposit went to the winner, would not have a major issue with it. Forfeit deposit would work with a small event, it would become a problem if the event is larger.
If the event is a category B, there is no organizer or director willing to have, at the door registeration with this size event. The organizer and director have the same problem for the deposit return. If the at the door only registeration being a problem for a category B, would not at the door only deposit return would be any better. The players can have a refund check sent to them, they want a full refund not a dollar service charge. Never had a refund, with a service charge for the cost of the check and postage. Larger tournaments will not have a forfeit deposit, as it will make the players upset. As players would be upset being inline, like being in last place inline. Or the players being upset if the check is not in the mail. If mailing out 100 letters, very sure you will be getting emails and phone calls for the next few weeks.
If the tournament is a small category D, with it being a one day event. Players are willing to tell the director they are withdrawing. Sure, players can be late from the lunch. Or something happen to them during the lunch, at a personal level. Or they had bad information when the next round starts after the lunch. Making the player being more then a hour off from the next round. If a forfeit is going to happen in a one day event, its going to happen after the lunch.
With forfeiting a game, seeing it in total as different reasons for the forfeiting in a one day event, then a number of day event. Sure, the last time I did win a forfeit game for a no show. The player was a provisional player, with the tournament not having any wins. I’m not sure the reason why he forfeited the game. Got to check my MSA data, but think he never did play any more events at that site. I do not know why, it could be a provisional player not knowing better. It could be any reason, and I do not care. The forfeiting deposit, would not have change anything.
The managment problems with a large event being annoying for all parties. The minor forfeiting in a small event, will not change the mind of a player forfeiting. Forfeiting in a one day event, was by an error of the next round, personal reasons and not able to contact the TD during the lunch, malice by a established player, or a provisional player not understanding about withdrawing. Would the deposit change anything, it could but the system is a greater burden then change of the mind of the player.