Time Delay Clocks

Running Chess Tournaments
21

Let’s get away from the 5-minute deduction for a bit, and back to the main topic, which is not using the delay at all.

I have been known to post the following notice at tournaments I’ve directed:

DIRTY POOL

It is DIRTY POOL to furnish a delay-capable clock without the delay set. Such a setting can confuse the opponent into believing there is a delay when there is none, resulting in unnecessary and acrimonious time-forfeit disputes.

If you furnish and use a delay-capable clock without the delay set, any or all of the following may happen to you:

  1. The TD reserves the right, at any time during the game, to point out to your opponent that the delay is not set.

  2. The TD reserves the right to allow your opponent, at any time during the game, to substitute any clock, delay-capable or otherwise, furnished by him.

  3. If you claim a draw on the grounds of insufficient losing chances, the TD may summarily dismiss your claim and subtract time from your clock. If, however, your opponent makes such a claim, he will receive the usual kind, gentle treatment.

  4. If you claim a win by time forfeit, the TD may dismiss your claim and give your opponent 5 minutes, plus delay time, to finish the game or reach the time control. No such consideration, however, will be given to you, should your opponent claim a win by time forfeit.

Posting the above at the tournament (and making it available as a handout) has proven to be an excellent preventative measure. So far, I’ve never had to use number 3 or number 4 (I’m not even sure I’d dare). The threat can be worse than the execution.

For a while at the Lunt Avenue club, there was a regular player who never turned on Bronstein mode on his Saitek. I would make it a point to notify each of his opponents, before the game, that the delay was not on, and that he (the opponent) therefore had the right to use his own clock.

Bill Smythe

22

Maybe in the Big Rock Candy Mountain they do…I do…I have seen some that don’t.

23

Even among TDs that try to check the clocks at the start of each round, it’s no sure thing.

It might be easy to distinguish 120 minutes from 115, but making sure the delay is on can be tricky. Some clocks, in some modes, make it difficult to tell. You pretty much have to be looking at it when one of the players presses his clock. Even then, you can’t always be sure. The Saitek, for example, displays hours and minutes (not seconds) until the main time falls below 5 minutes. You can’t really tell whether there was any Bronstein addback or not.

Bill Smythe

24

Is this a rhetorical question or an actual request for information? I would recommend that you actually read the entire thread before jumping in – like the part where I said “It’s not in the scholastic regulations …”. I was referring to this document: uschess.org/scholastic/Schol … 007red.pdf

Have YOU read these regulations? If you had, I don’t think you would have asked the question. I searched these regulations, looking at each occurance of the words clock, delay, deduct, deduction, and minute. Nowhere did it say that this (deducting 5 minutes) is the required conduct at USCF national scholastic events.

Without such a rule, it seems to me that the national events SHOULD use the normal rule and not the optional deduction. Yes, it’s LEGAL to require players to deduct 5 minutes, but it’s not HELPFUL and it’s not the best practice. We really ought to have more consistency, especially in the national events. If you want everybody to set their clocks for G/115 then just announce that in all the pre-tournament publicity. There’s a great deal of inconsistency out there, and the USCF should be leading the way in curbing it, not adding to it.

Some of the kids and parents aren’t that familiar with their digital clocks and it would be easier on them if they were told AHEAD OF TIME (before they walk into the tournament room – like in all the tournament ads, flyers, etc.) how the clocks needed to be set.

25

You are preaching to the choir. INHO: Traditionally the Scholastic Council’s status as a sizable source of income for the USCF seems to give them a lot of wiggle room when it comes to abiding by the adult USCF rules.

With that said it would make sense for them to simply include their position on the use of the 5-minute rule in their scholastic regulations as a service to their customers (parents and coaches). In the past they have left that decision up to the chief TD/tournament staff. Perhaps contacting the Scholastic Council or Pat Knight might work for getting their version of the 5-minute rule published.

Be aware that since that 5-minute deduction is not a deal breaker in either adult or scholastic chess it does fall under the umbrella of not having to be published but only announced.

Tim

26

At the Nationals there is often a “crunch” to get food, etc. between rounds. For those players whose games go to the maximum time limit (and there are usually a number of games that do), if they did not have the five minute reduction for delay they could be left with maybe only half an hour to get their food, etc. between some of the rounds. Consequently, I think the 5 minute reduction should be kept.

27

If it is felt that the players need an additional 10 minutes between rounds then reduce the announced time control. Don’t announce a G/120 when it is going to be reduced to G/115.

As a director I get frustrated when I do check the clocks at the beginning of the round and half of them are set with a 5 minute reduction. Having those players put the 5 minutes back on the clocks leads to delays in getting the round started.

The 5 minute reduction was a good idea when few players had digital clocks. IMHO now that most players have digital clocks there is no need for having this option.

28

IMHO, this is a very poor excuse. If they need more time between rounds, then just advertise the faster time control (like G/115 instead of G/120), or schedule more time. These are supposed to be national championship events – they should be run at a somewhat more leisurely pace than the local weekend swiss or ASAP scholastic.

29

Maybe the time has come to change the rule. Reverse it so that if you have to use a clock without delay the director has the discretion to add time to it.

30

.

Agreed.

31

I personally prefer not to subtract any time when using delay. At tournaments where I am able to start the round on time, I like to use the entire advertised time, e.g., G/90. That is somewhat easy to do at local tournaments and at all adult tournaments. Not quite as easy at large State or National scholastic tournaments because trying to clear the room of parents and coaches is quite a chore. At the upcoming National K-12/Collegiate Championships, the time control will be G/90. On Friday, we will have five hours between the start of rounds 1 and 2. No problem there. On Saturday and Sunday, however, we will only have four hours. With time delay, that will leave us less than an hour between rounds and if it takes us more than five minutes to clear the room, our Backroom staff could be in quite a crunch!

Having said that, I agree – we should use the advertised time control, in this case G/90, unless it presents a problem. While there will be a few games that may go the distance, most will finish before then. With that in mind, I was already planning on using the entire time, without deducting five minutes from the clocks.

Just to be clear, we always try to check the clocks and that is why we instruct the players to place them facing a center aisle. Of course, with the number of participants at a National event, it is not possible for a TD to just “park” himself or herself to observe the clocks to also determine if the time delay is set. We instruct the players to do so, and I am sure 99% of them do. The first round is particularly tricky for the TDs because the Section Chiefs are busy doing re-pairings. That leaves fewer directors to check the room. Because of the special situations encountered in the first round, we allocate that extra time. In later rounds, we should have less problems, but we also have less time!

Players involved in a game that goes the distance, will get less than an hour (probably less than 50 minutes) before the start of the next round. Of course, the players can go to eat and always return to the playing area after the start of the round, and that is okay. They will still get to play (as long as they are not late by over an hour!). Our TDs, however, do not have that luxury – after all the games are finished, the Section Chiefs need to review all the results, get with their Backroom counterpart, go to eat, and return to the playing area BEFORE the start of the round! While the Floor TDs are eating, the Backroom TDs are doing the pairings. Those need to be posted as quickly as possible so that the players will know where to go to and be ready to start the next round…on time!

Those directors who have worked with us at National events know that even when five minutes are deducted, at times, we still have to really hustle to get things done on time! In spite of that, our professional staff gets the job done. It is not easy, and oftentimes it is a thankless job. Most of the time, we do not have the luxury of those 10 extra minutes we are talking about, but, as always, we will do the best we can. I am still thinking about it…

This is pretty long, but I just wanted to make sure you understand that when those five minutes are deducted at National scholastic events, is because we do not have as much time as you might think…

Of course, we could extend the time between rounds, but that would present other scheduling problems…

We just need to do things on time, with the cooperation of all participants, parents, coaches and friends…

32 
This wouldn't work in G/30, because then you're running a tournament where everyone is required to use G/25 instead.

Then you would be mandating that [i]everyone's[/i] schedule be increased by 10 minutes(?) per round (at least), including players with analogs and non-delay digitals, instead of eliminating the likelihood that the round will last longer due to the time-dealy.

 If you already know that the rules allow 5 minutes to be deducted from time delay clocks, isn't that just another way of advertising the time control as "G/120 (or G/115 + 5 sec. td)" in the TLA?  If that specific phrase is not in the TLA, isn't it nevertheless [i]still understood to be in there,[/i] due to the rules pertaining to time delay?
33

No. You understand that the TD may announce this as a possibility - but the preferred, default is that time NOT be deducted.

Deducting is a minor variation, but it is now the SECONDARY option, not the assumed default.

34

Also having g/30 tournament announced as g/25 regardless of whether there is a delay or not would change it to quick chess. I’m always amazed at how many games I see at Steve’s Four Rated Games Tonight played with analog clocks. Many people show up with no clock, and analog clocks are what’s available for loan. I sure wouldn’t like to arrive late and find my opponent has started with an analog clock and the time limit reduced by 5 minutes.

35

One (of many) problems I have with deducting 5 minutes from the clock is the very situation you talk about – deducting 5 minutes from G/30 but not calling it G/25. If the games finish (as many of mine seem to) around move 30, you haven’t had 30 minutes of time to play your game. You’ve had between 25 minutes and 27.5 minutes, depending on how much of your time delay you used on each move. That SHOULD be too fast a time control to rate normally.

There has been a consistent move to rate faster and faster time controls. I remember when 40/2 was considered normal for “serious” chess and 40/1 was the fastest time control allowed to be rated. Then we started allowing 30/30, and a little later G/30. Now we could have a player run out of time after having spent only a little over 25 minutes on his game. The constant erosion of minimum time controls has gone too far. Once we make the change to rate all games under the rating-system-formally-known-as-quick, we should step back and re-examine things. Maybe it would be a good time to raise the minimum for the regular rating system back to something more like G/60.

In any case, I think the time is here (with most players seeming to have delay capable clocks) to start expecting a notice if the TD is going to require the 5 minute deduction – at least at the fastest time controls. Taking 5 minutes off a 30 minute time control sounds significant to me (where I’d be less concerned taking 5 minutes off 120), and sounds worthy of advance notice to the players. I’d suggest time controls should be announced like this:
G/30 (G/25d5)
if you’re going to require the deduction.

I also think we should re-examine just what time with a delay we consider equivalent to a fixed time without a delay. On ICC, for example, they would be considered equivalent (showing up at the same point in the seek graph) if they made the same amount of time available for a 40 move game. That would be like taking 2/3 of the delay, in seconds from the time control, in minutes, to give a time control with a delay that’s equivalent to the one without delay. USCF’s OTB games, OTOH, are considered to have equivalent time controls if they make the same amount of time available for a 60 move game. Few of my games go that far. All in all, I like ICC’s time controls better (including the cumulative add-back instead of non-cumulative delay).

36

Big deal. So the fourth round would start at 11:15 instead of 10:45.

I think you should either

  1. run it as G/30 for all games, both with and without the delay, or

  2. run it as Quick-rated, say G/25, with a 3-second delay and no score keeping, or

  3. run it as G/25 for all games, both with and without the delay.

OK, so number 3 won’t work, yet. So:

  1. Push for two rule changes:

4a. Allow games to be regular-rated if the main time, in minutes, plus the announced (or default) delay time, in seconds, adds up to at least 30.

4b. Allow the TD to add time to games not using the delay, rather than subtracting time from games using the delay.

(Note: 4a. would mean that games played with analog clocks could still be G/25, as long as the standard control for the tournament (either by announcement or by default) is G/25 d/5.)

Until 4. passes so that 3. becomes legal, just use 1. or 2.

It sounds as though a lot of players are deliberately furnishing analog clocks to avoid the 5-minute deduction. If so, then the deduction is more than just undesirable, it’s a disaster. It’s encouraging the use of non-preferred equipment to take advantage of a loophole.

Bill Smythe

37

That would be a huge deal for me. With a 10:45 start time it means I finish at 11:45 at the latest. I catch a 12:30 am train back home. The next train isn’t until 1:30. The potential of finishing at 12:15 would make it almost impossible to to catch the 12:30 which would mean I’d have to take a 1/2 point bye in round 4. (Yes Steve I know that would avoid 3rd round full point byes. :blush: ) I prefer to play all 4 games if possible. When I have been given a last round bye due to having a crappy night at least I can make the 11:10 train.

38

It is somewhat of a big deal, in fact, as the extra 30 minutes adds, well, an extra half-hour to your trip home on a school/work night. Also, the additional delay might easily add up to more than 30 minutes, over the course of 4 games.

As noted previously, the additional delay makes this undesireable.

As a test, some years ago I tried running tournaments with virtually the same conditions (entry fees, prizes, times, etc.), except the time control was Game/29 in one set, and Game/30 in the other set. I found from my experience that the Game/30 drew much better than Game/29, and I concluded that the number of players who want their Game/30 results regular-rated is significant.

Incorrect.  The Marshall currently lends out BHB clocks to tournament players (it does not have a supply of Chronos to lend out, however).  A lot of the players in this event come right from work or school, and don't bring their own clocks; they use the club's BHBs instead.  Nevertheless, a number of players [b]do[/b] bring their own Chronos to the tournament.  Among the players who do bring their own clocks, virtually all of them bring delay clocks (mostly Chronos).  Hardly anyone who brings his own clock to the tournament brings an anaolog.
39

I have on occasion brought analog clocks to tournaments to avoid the time deduction. I know of other players who do the same. I actually headed out of my apartment to the Marshall with an analog a few weeks ago to discover that one of the winders was missing on the back. I returned the analog but did not pick up the digital that was sitting next to it.

It just seems like yesterday that John Fernandez stated that players in New York would not use time delay in their games. People seem to have adapted well since John made that statement.

By changing the disadvantage from digital clocks to analog we will quickly see that players will either bring their own digital clocks to tournaments or the organizers will supply digital clocks in place of analogs.

Any time control that adds up to 30 minutes or greater of reflection time should be ratable under the regular rating system. Thus a tournament that is advertised as G/25 + 5 should be ratable under the regular system.

I personally would be in support of two ADM’s, one for doing away with the option of deducting time for time delay clocks, and one for incorporating all time controls that equal or exceed 30 minutes per side under the regular rating system. This would include games with time delay or an increment.

40 
 You could also throw in an ADM to require players to make their move before writing it down.