If everyone has the same ethics as Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, ethics what ethics? 
You are an idiot septic Doug!
Do you have the ethics of Kirsan?
Maybe you really need to start cheating yourself and make a huge income from it. Then you will quit posting on this forum!
He is the President of FIDE, and he does get re-elected. It takes a majority to get elected, so the majority cannot be un-ethical.
If I did have a company and wanted electronic scorekeeping, just deal with FIDE. Who ever said Kirsan ever walked away from money? If FIDE demands the federations to use electronic scorekeeping, that is one way to get past the rules committee.
Dear Septic Doug,
Your last two posts have nothing to do with the discussion of this subject. Please start a new subject thread if you desire to expound on your superior abilities to get something done as you state.
I think your suggestions are excellent, and seem like they would be managable even in a large tournament. Personally I like to see an inexpensive unit that only has Chesspad on it with no analysis feature available what so ever.
I played someone a few years ago who wanted to use his palm to record our game. It was at the local club in one of our tournaments. I allowed him to, and the one advantage he had was that he was able to input on it faster then I was able to write. I think he ended out beating me on time.
Show me the rule that allows them. And no, you can’t get the rules to say what you want. They say what they say. (Of course, if you are incapable of reading standard English, you may have difficulty comprehending them.) Perhaps you can find a greedy or stupid organizer willing to run a tournament on an irregular basis, but that’s an entirely different thing.
Their is a difference between being banned and simply not approved.
John Hillery
I do hate electronic scorekeeping period. Having someone use an electronic scorekeeping device is just like having a convicted sex offender watch over your child as the babysitter.
I’m sorry sceptic, but you’re not worth talking to.
e4e5,
I think we should re-examine the issue of “standard equipment”. I think I am probably at fault for bringing this topic up in the beginning (sorry about that). After further reflection, I don’t think becoming “standard equipment” would really change anything! Why? Because organizers don’t have to let you use “standard equipment” if they don’t want to! Several organizers, for example, provide their own sets and boards and don’t let you use your own even if it’s “standard equipment”. Likewise, organizers could provide their own scoresheets for players to use.
The only thing that would be accomplished by having these recognized as standard equipment is that it would IMPLY a PRESUMPTION of acceptability. I think that these devices SHOULD be accepted as standard equipment IF AND ONLY IF they meet a reasonable set of requirements that will include adequate security against abuse and “cheating”.
IF these devices meet reasonable requirements, then I think organizers would usually feel a strong compulsion to accept them. Especially if they have competition and felt that rejection of the devices would lower participation in their tournaments. The only exception would be tournaments with large prize funds and those few strange organizers that don’t even let players use their own scorebooks.
The problem I have with the electronic scorekeeping, why would anyone want to use the device in the first place? Before it should become standard equipment, why would anyone want to use the device for a tournament?
If the device is not going to be used for cheating, why spend the money? If the USCF and FIDE can come up with a final set of rules with the electronic device. Even if there is more than one company that can produce the electronic device, the cost is not going to be under $50 for years.
If the USCF is the only federation that accepts the electronic scorekeeping, the market will be so small the company will fail. This is the reason why FIDE not the USCF has to settle the issue with electronic scorekeeping. If the electronic scorekeeping is standard equipment, will not see the cost of the device ever going under $200.
For a number of active members, a person would be called very active to play in 4 tournaments in a given year. Players that are active with a active director, could get 12 tournaments in a given year. Lets just give a high number of games for one year, say 25 games within one year.
If the device that we cannot talk about, the cost is $435. If you play 25 games within one year, cost is $435. Each games would be 25 into 435 or 1 game $17.20. Tanstaafl, if you use the electronic device for 25 games for one year, each game would cost you $17.20 per-game. Why spend $17.20 a game, if you are not going to use the electronic device not to be cheating?
What if you use the electronic device for 87 games before the electronic device is broken or you get a new one. For a number of players, 87 rated games can take years even a life time. That would be $5 per-game every time you used the device. If you are going to spend $5 per-game and not going to use it for non-cheating. That is just so strange for me.
Simplicity, accuracy and a recorded pgn file that you can use to go over your game with later, all in one stroke. If you already own a Palm pilot the cost is small.
The key thing is that you end up with a computerized database of your own games.
That’s why you would/could want it.
Now having said that you can do the same thing entering the games you play after the games are over. Often times I don’t enter my until days later. That is actually beneficial because I see the games in a slightly different light.
If money was no object and I wanted this I would go for the DGT board because it will even pick up the moves after time pressure allows you to stop keeping score. With the DGT you can record your speed games if you want to.
Even if you don’t already own one. I just checked ebay and you can get a used Palm in nice condition for $10 (the “buy it now” price, not an auction). As long as you don’t want one of the newer ones, the price is really cheap. I’ve paid more than that for a nice scorebook.
Price really just isn’t an issue.
With that device we cannot talk about is $435. If you use the device for 90 rated games, is $5 per-game worth that much for accuracy? This is my major reason why I hate the device, accuracy is nice but spending that much money for accuracy does not sound rational. What if you are in time trouble, are you willing to keep score when you are under 5 minutes? If you do have the device, not all of your games are going to have full accuracy.
Spending that much money just for accuracy, just makes your life feel so anal. It is just like someone that wants to spend money on a atomic clock, just to have accuracy to the second. There is a person I know that spent over 5 thousand dollars just to get all the information of the temperature and rain level and the other weather data around his house. There is information, but some information is just pointless.
Being eccentric just to be anal with data accuracy is not rational. If the person is going to spend money in dollars per-game than use a free scoresheet, you got to ask is it accuracy or a mode for cheating
When the scoresheets are free at the tournament, spending money on your own just to have it done different should be an issue for the tournament director.
Doug (that IS you isn’t it?), do you try to control the spittle flying from your mouth as you rant or not even notice it? Get a grip.
It’s funny for those of us that live in a country that celbrates freedom when somebody JUST DOESN’T GET IT. Do you somehow think freedom means that we all get to make the same sorry choices that you have???
If I want to spend $20 on a nice leather scorebook, what’s it to you? If I want to spend $10 on a cheap Palm and then put Chess Pad on it, why should you care? If I have plenty of money and want to spend $359 (maybe less if Dave gets me a good deal) on a dedicated device, so what? [size=150]MYOB.[/size]
Just get your nose out of my wallet. My decisions don’t need to make sense to you. That’s why they’re MINE.
BTW, none of your business, but if a dedicated device saved me 5 minutes per rated game (when I go back and analyze my games), a year’s worth of games would more than pay for the device. I don’t have one because I prefer a paper score sheet, but I think other players should have the right to spend their own money the way they want. I’m considering one for my daughter because it’s a great training device – that value goes way beyond the number of hours it will save me.
If things work out this Monday night at chess club we have scheduled a game 5, no delay, tournament. (Not USCF rated. local Ladder) We have a travelling trophy which the winner takes possession of. We do a qualifier of 5 rounds. Then we take the top 4 finishers and do a round robin to determine the winner. Experience has allowed us to do this without tiebreaks etc etc Anyway since Ron has a DTG board we hope to use it on the top board to record the games played there. Be a little tricky with the round robin thing. May just have to choose a game to record there. Anyway I then will be able to take these games and post to our web site. I don’t know if I would want to do this all the time but I think it will make an interesting experiment.
I don’t see any way that this could be accomplished with a program on a Palm Pilot or using score sheets. The players will simply be playing too fast.
And realize Doug that this whole discussion has nothing to do with the Unnameable Device.
People here are merely pointing out to the rules committee and others various options that should be considered for future rules. It is imput like this(even your knee jerk reaction anti everything statements) that will help guide the way to the future.
There will still be tournaments that require that you keep score on the supplied score sheets.
But what is right for a big money tournament isn’t always appropiate for a small 20 person tournament, or a no prize 6 man round robin.
If I have a electronic device, and use it for cheating. Cheating in a small tournament of 20 players, or a tournament with 200 players, it is still cheating the person I play with. If the tournament is small, would say I could get away with cheating than a big money tournament.
How many rated games do you play in a year?
I’m thinking of spending my money on sulfa drugs as it has sulfur as a drug. It is not that hard to get the drug, if you want you could order the sulfa drugs. If your not use to the drug, there are a number of side effects with the drug. Nausea, vomiting, mental confusion and fever with other long term side effects also.
If I know who my victim is before the start of the round. Say the pairings are up before lunch or up for the next day round. I could spike the coffee or some other way before the start of the round. My victim would get sick, I should win the game. Its’ my money and I can spend it the way I want.
Tanstaafl, ya its my money, that is how I want to spend it, and you can spend it some other way to win a game too. Make a deal with ya, you can use your electronic device but you need to drink this free cup of coffee I got for ya.
15A. Manner of keeping score. In the course of play each player is required to record the game…on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.
15G Ownership of scoresheets. The scoresheets of all games in a tournament are the property of the sponsoring organization(s). If the organizer requires that a copy of each game score be submitted by the player, duplicate scoresheets must be provided, and players who fail to submit scoresheets may be penalized.
I am not sure this puts me in your group of “strange organizers” but for open tournaments I do provide NCR scoresheets and do require that they be turned in after the game is over. But, I have no problem if someone wants to keep a duplicate copy in their scorebook or an electronic device providing I ultimately get a printout or copy of the score.
Would have to say electronic scorekeeping within a rated USCF tournament is not going to happen for years to come. Electronic scorekeeping is such a small market, any company is not going to be around for long. Electronic scorekeeping, only a small market and not worth the time to build.
With the BAD BLOOD with the company we cannot talk about and the USCF, it is not going to happen. Will have to say whatever you want to say about me, feel my mission to stop a bad idea has done the damage.