I was just wondering what people thought of the idea that some players can now record games using a PDA. Should this be allowed? Obviously there is the concern that someone is running a program at the same time. That issue aside, is using a palm pilot illegal?
Looking at the rulebook I found nothing that specifically prohibits the use of such a device. I can see some advantages that might rule out such a device. For example if the computer prevented entry of illegal moves. But what if the program was simply a word processor?
According to 15A, the players are required to use the scoresheets provided by the organizer. I suppose that if the organizer requires, or allowed PDAs, it would not be illegal, provided the player could demonstrate to the director’s satisfaction that it offered no assistance to the player other than the recording of moves.
This would be a prime negative for use of the PDA, as the rules prohibit the use of notes and assistance, except in the case of the handicapped.
Another problem would be the organizer’s ownership rights of the scoresheet. Other than copying the game to the organizer’s scoresheet, how would you provide the organizer a copy if he/she required one?
This comes up when player’s have their own scorebooks, too. In my events, I require everyone to use the carbonless scoresheets that I provide, and they may then copy the scoresheet to their book afterwards. I don’t allow the reverse (allowing them to copy to the scoresheets I provide after the game) because of potential typos.
I seem to remember talk of the use of tape recorders, but it would seem that that should be prohibited on the basis of distracting other nearby players.
I think I’m for keeping the customary and usual method of manually keeping score.
I’m sure there’s other negatives out there that don’t come to mind right now. Maybe another poster will. Perhaps some arguments for can be submitted.
Interesting topic
The PDA sounds like a dangerous idea, but it gives rise to some other high-tech possibilities that may eventually become feasible.
Some international events have experimented with sensory boards, which can record moves, report illegal moves, and send signals instantly to TV networks. Unfortunately, the whole concept of a sensory board seems technically marginal – what happens in blitz situations, with dropped pieces, pieces placed on the edges of squares, etc?
A better idea might be to equip each player with a computer screen and mouse, instead of a standard board, pieces, and clock. Even though the players would still be face to face, they would enter moves in the same manner as though they were using Fritz or the internet. The equipment could record the moves, keep track of time, and provide each player (and the organizer) with a copy of the game score after the game. The equipment could also trap illegal moves, and instantly validate or refute any draw claims by triple repetition or the 50-move rule.
Just some thoughts for the future. I think Jorge Garcia is already doing something along these lines in some of his unrated tournaments.
Bill Smythe
Even with the first scoresheet there can be typos within the game. With a PDA’s, errors in my judgement would be found during the game with a PDA then the hand scoresheet. The reason for the organizer having ownership of the scoresheets is finding a few of the games to be published. When someone comes to a event with a scorebook (like myself), its’ a way for telling the director the player does not want the game published after the event.
If one person use a PDA, and the other player (not the director) at the board, not having a problem with the recording of the moves. The director could still have the recorded game from one person not two of the game. If both players use a PDA or a scorebook during the game, (the director or organizer) would have to be look at other games with no typos, that could be published.
The spirit of the 5th edition (official rules of chess) would be against the use of the PDAs’, without a clear statement against the PDAs’. It would be up to each director how they would deal with the issue. With Senior Director Winchester, he has the right to force the players to use the scoresheets he gives the players. After the game would copy the scoresheet onto their scorebook or PDA. Myself, if they want to use a scorebook or a PDA, if the other player of the board does not object to the practice, that is their liberty.
If a player wants to use a PDA, they should call or email the director on the ruling before bring the PDA to the event. When the 6th edition does come out, within the next 5 to 10 years – feel the PDAs’ would be illegal.
Actually, I have done some programming on PDA’s before and submitted this to USCF, which seemed to have gotten shot down. This was roughly 3 years ago using a Palm OS.
However, as more players demand it, it might be a different situation. Allowing handicapped players to take notation by dragging pieces would be a great asset.
But from the last I heard, USCF will NOT allow it, direct from one of the big boys.
One of the reasons why the PDA’s would be illegal. Would be a problem, if the opponent of the person with the PDA, would need to us opponents’ scoresheet for assistance (15D, 15D1, 15D2, 15D3). As borrowing opponents scoresheet is legal, the opponent should be borrowing the scoresheet on their own time. If the opponent does not know how to use the PDA, would need to use verbal exchange – between the owner of the PDA and the opponent.
The opponent would be needing to use more time on their own clock, to make the correction on their scoresheet, if the opponent does not understand how to use the PDA. If the opponent does not understand the PDA, the opponent would need to use verbal exchange with the player on the same board. The verbal exchange would be a problem with other members in the event, as the players could have a verbal exchange at the board. Even moving away from the board would be a minor problem, so they can have a verbal exchange away from earshot of the other players. As any time players get up or sit down at a board in silence, can cause distractions of the other players at the event.
At this time, will ban the use of PDAs’ at my event. As the problem of borrowing scoresheets, even if the opponent accepts the other persons right to use a PDA. It would take away the issue of needing more time on their clock to fix a scoresheet, if they accepted their opponents right to use a PDA at the start of the game. If the owner of the PDA and the opponent that needs to borrow the scoresheet, could be at risk to bother other players at the event. With an unwarrented need to use verbal exchange, or the unwarrented need to have to leave the board to fix a scoresheet. That would take away the liberty of the other players in the event.
In my opinion this should never be allowed because there is virtually no way to guarantee that the operator of the PDA isn’t cheating. Even if the organizer was rich enough to provide PDA’s to all interested parties, a PDA could be switched for one that had a hacked notation program, one that flashes its recommendation for the next move when the user presses a button. In an age where we have enough difficulty safeguarding fairness with the HB Global Chess Challenge bathroom monitors and the World Open’s now legendary Von Neumann, putting PDAs right next to the chessboard is simply a bad idea. Cheat me once and I’d have a bad taste in my mouth. Cheat me twice and I’d seriously think about giving up tournament chess.
That’s somewhat of an unfair attitude towards technology. PDA programs can easily be safeguarded to prevent such problems, for example, a forced sound alert if the user switches between programs. You really can’t run more than one program on a split screen.
All these safeguards can easily be put into place, along with a software key.
Give it 10 years and it will be accepted by FIDE when a developer comes up with a safe program.
What’s the difference in letting people use headphones? You can use MP3 players, why couldn’t I program one of those and “Change songs” every move? It’s no different, but it’s accepted.
That’s the biased views that will keep great things for chess on the shelf without opening up and seeing there can be a lot of good come about if you give it a chance.
What person do we place in trust, … with the safeguards … and the key?
Simple Code and testing review from USCF and beta testers. It’s not rocket science.
Thunderchicken:
It would be a small market, even if there was only one (software) company that did have a PDA program. Not to have any cheating (cheating could happen with a PDA), the PDA would have to be designed – so it can only record chess notation. With less then 70,000 members play over-the-board chess, with that group: finding a market for recording notation. With most of the membership, would only have less then 50 rated over-the-board games in a given year. Only a (geek and nerd) small group of people, would buy (around $200) a product like a chess notation PDA. If (thunderchicken) you are able to find a company to design, produce and market (chess notation PDA), with national sales (around 200 units) being small. Just go out there (make a fool of yourself) and find that market.
Small Market? I could design it in less than a month, like I said, it’s not hard. Saying that only a handful of people would use it is pretty silly. Did Bill Gates only design PC software when no one would use it? PDA prices have been cut dramatically since when I researched this issue in 2002. It’s simple software, not for geeks and nerds. You’re using a computer now, are you a geek and nerd? No. Thats what they called PC users in the middle 1980’s. You can’t predict the future…
What about the world market? Don’t think people in Russia and Europe don’t use PDA’s? If you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it. Simple as that, but if you think all technology encourages cheating is like saying electricity is only for satan worshipers.
If you can become the next Bill Gates with (PDA chess notation) this product. Even become the next Bill Gates for all the technology needed for all chess players. Not sure how the federation could have over 200 million members by 2025. Not sure how the (historical) marketing of a personal computer would be equal to a PDA chess notation. If the PDA chess notation could produce over 200 million USCF members by 2025, making you the next Bill Gates of Chess. My prediction on this future, not going to happen.
Predicting someone in a mental ward, with lots of medication.
Satan worship = electricity? Its nice to know electricity can be used by non worshipers.
It’s okay, stay closed minded. Eventually us young players will accept technology as a great tool, just like how we enjoy playing chess over the internet and using our digital clocks.
Since you can simply get a cheap PDA for around $20, maybe it’s only a matter of time until FIDE recognizes such a device, then USCF will as well.
But if $20 is too steep to make sure you take exact notation and a USB connection to your favorite computer program to store your games is too much for you to see in the future, then I wish you well with your limestone and chisel.
Have ownership (myself as owner) of a chronos II. Do not mind if the technology can give improvement for the common good. Just having technology for the sake of technology, is not always best for any given society. If you think I’m old (38 years old), have noticed technology being marketed from one year to the next, the product being the new wave of technology, in a few years pulled from the open market.
With the 4th edition (1/1/1994 - 12/31/2003) being enforced for ten years, do not see the 5th edition being replaced with the 6th edition (around 2010 till 2015) for years to come. When (thunderchicken) you talk of having PDA’s used in the 6th edition, a year or two before its published, someone will be calling you an old man for thinking of a out dated technology.
I believe that a device would be readily accepted at this time if it were dedicated to move entry with little or no other functional capability. It could have the capability of rejecting an illegal move entry, if that’s clearly within the USCF rules. There’s also the possibility of a connection to a digital time clock, so that remaining time could be automatically noted with the move.
PDAs can do so much; it’s hard to be sure what’s really going on in there. That’s why a move recording program on a fully functional PDA is likely to be a hard sell for tournament use at this time, and possibly for the long term. However, a dedicated USCF approved device could have a lot of near-term potential.
It would indeed be nice to have error-free legible scoring from such a device for adjudication, analysis and publication. A TD could possibly view the game history immediately on the devices display. This dedicated device could beam a pgn text file of the game scoring to a PDA’s memopad or send it to a PC via USB. I can see it being able to download either on a game-by-game basis, or a whole tournament in one pgn file. In fact, a wireless capability could let you monitor every game in a tournament hall in real time, and pump that out to a viewing hall or over the internet to the world.
This could be a very affordable device by someone like Excalibur and possibly even connect to a Game Timer III with touch buttons (my hopeful speculation).
Ah yes, technology can be wonderful…
Mike Swatek
certified nerd
Mike:
With this (PDA chess notation) issue, and its impact in tournament chess, would have to start with FIDE. It would be in a number of committees, one being the “FIDE Computer and Internet Chess Committee” – with 14 members with one American on the committee. The “FIDE Ethics Commission” - with five members with the chairman being the only American on the board.
The other factor with FIDE, is the minor impact the United States has with FIDE in the first place. With 60,000 FIDE rated players in the January rating list, and around 1,500 rated events in 2004; with the small number of Americans with FIDE ratings and America having FIDE events. The only way there are any major change, its’ from the rank and file membership demanding the change in the first place.
The 6th edition (Official Rules of Chess) would not be going to any committee for years to come. The 5th edition went from committee to committee, being around three years of debate and arguments for the new edition. It has cleared up the problem with (digital clocks), and change minor issues. As a whole, the 4th edition to the 5th edition was not a major shift in policy.
The history of the rules of chess, and how they became part of the rules has been a very natural organic process. The rules are designed to have a natural flow from one event to the next, from one director to the next. If looking at clocks, chess clocks have been a part of tournament chess since the 19th century. It was not till the mid-1970’s, with digitial clocks having a small impact in any events. It did take a shift in the wording how digitial clocks being accepted back in 1999, with the last change with the 5th edition.
Do not see the same impact with PDA’s to replace hand scoresheets, as delay clocks did with the analog clocks. If its’ the same organic evulation as the delay clocks, PDA’s would not be preferred equipment till the 2030’s or 2040’s. The problem with PDA’s, making it a reason why they have a lower change to be accepted. Digital clocks for its simple function have to run down to zero, PDA’s functions always change, by the 2030’s and 2040’s, we would not even use the name of PDAs’ at that time.
I agree with you on this. Since Excalibur makes different electronics (like hand held video games), I’d bet this is a good few years away. I personally would pay $50 for one of these devices, just because of the time it would save me from manually writing down and copying to chessbase.
When this happens in the next few years, I will welcome it to any of my tournaments and would be one of the first to purchase one of these devices. I guess saying this necessarily doesn’t have to go directly on a Palm or Windows CE device, but a seperate device that only does this functionality, along with a handwritting translation similar to what tablet PC’s already do.
Once this is released, USCF may have no choice but to accept it due to it’s popularity. I think excalabur needs to make enough to make it cost effective, which opening it to a global market would make it more profitable. Since electronics are cheap and easy to create, a few years isn’t asking too much.
Mike Swatek (a member of the USCF’s MIS committee) has identied the biggest potential stumbling block with using a PDA-based notation program in a tournament:
There is no way to ensure that the notation program is the only program running on the PDA.
I think Mike has done some PDA programming, I stick to larger computers, mostly running Linux, and do mostly database work, and these days web work, too, such as the USCF’s computer system and web interface for TDs.
I don’t know how easy it would be to write such an application, or how marketable it would be, I do know that it might be very hard to convince TDs and suspicious opponents that there isn’t some other chess program running in the background and sending signals to one player.
Why couldn’t you have a dedicated device that does nothing but take down notation?
Here’s my idea: A handheld that displays a chess board and pieces. By touching a piece on the screen with a marker or pen or whatever, move the piece as the game is played on the board. No writing is done because the device captures the moves and creates the PGN file for it, besides displaying the notation off to one side of the board display.
I’m just mentioning the basics here; I’m sure there could be enhancements to it, but using such a dedicated device should calm fears of cheating.
Radishes