I wonder if anyone from Excalibur or another such company will ever read the ideas in this thread? Anyone have a contact they could send this way?
Mike Swatek
But the application can detect other programs that are open, which would solve that problem. But the notation program would have to be endorsed by USCF.
For example, if I run thunderchicken v1.0 and you switch to pocket fritz, a forced alert could sound which you opponent would hear. These settings can be forced and not changed.
But again, along the same lines, why not a unique PDA that only does notation?
Mike Swatek is right, there is no way the PDA is only doing chess notation. Even with chess clocks, there is no way one director can look at all the boards at the same time. If one board is having time trouble, a board at the other end of the tournament hall could be having the same problem. The problem with PDAs’, they would be active during the whole game. The owner of the PDA could turn on some program (cheating). When the director comes close to the board, would have time to turn that function off, or hide (turning PDA face down) the cheating.
With a chess clock, the clock is not to be moved during the game. The players cannot try to hide the time on the clock. Anyone looking at the board, if they are looking at the front of the clock: can see the time on the clock standing up. Even with a clock, nobody can watch and look at all the clocks at the same time. If its a illegal move made on the board, anyone can look at someones game and noticed the illegal move. As a director unable to look at all the boards at the same time, unable to look at all the clocks at the same time – now someone wants me to look at all the PDA’s.
Even if there was a program, like a few people talked about – that gives a beep or warning of the user doing some other program other then chess notation. The owner of the PDA could turn the chess notation off, turn on some other program, cheat … turn the chess notation back on. If a single is sent to the director, telling the director what is going on with the PDA: the director is to watch the boards, take care of problems when they happen: not look at a data screen of 20 or 100 PDA’s going on.
If it’s a dedicated device (perhaps something that might come from a company like Excaliber), it’s no longer a PDA, right?
I don’t think a PDA can ever be trusted not to have something else running in the background. Even if a PDA application can check to make sure that it is the only chess application running (which I doubt), what’s to keep someone from spoofing that application, or modifying it?
I still think through a ton of testing you could perfect something like that. Yea, there can be copies of applications written to spoof commands from pocket fritz, but I don’t see it any different than any other software.
Maybe Excalabur can write a PNA instead of a PDA (Personal Notation Assistant).
Either way, having something like that would be freaking great to hook into a laptop so you don’t have to duplicate your game.
Thunderchicken:
When you are talking of having a PDA or now the PNA (personal notation assistant), you’re thinking as a player not as a director. Everyone knows you’re a director in you’re own right. As a player, it would be better for you’re own wants and needs with a PDA.
Have this question for you (thunderchicken).
If someone has a PDA, and the other person use a scoresheet. The person with the scoresheet needs to borrow the PDA to correct the scoresheet. During the time to borrow the scoresheet, the persons clock is running. If the person (scoresheet borrower / PDA borower) has no idea how to use the PDA, how would the player understand the information, or, how to get the information. Would not the owner of the PDA and the person wanting to borrow would have a problem.
First, the device we’re talking about isn’t a PDA, it’s a dedicated, one-trick pony. Any features on it would be for the sole purpose of helping the player keep notation in a recognizable form. Since we’re just talking about it, we can make it do anything we want, so Poof! There it is with the last five or so moves displayed next to the chessboard display in standard notation, easily readable by anyone!
Now, that wasn’t so hard, was it? What else do you want it to do??
Radishes
could this be what you all are thinking about: dgtprojects.com/eboard_features.htm
Radishes:
Can show you a delay chess clock. You turn it on (delay chess clock) and set the time, it will run down to 0:00. If you bring in 100 established over the board players, then ask them to set (clock they do not own) this clock, how many will not have a clue what they are doing? Are you sure everyone would know how to use this product (computer chess notation)?
OK, the player messed up on his notation, that’s his problem. What if his opponent wasn’t taking notation?
Still his problem.
At a tournament in Oklahoma in September, a GM complained that his (class B) opponent was using an electronic device (CD player with headphones) during the game, and that this was in opposition to FIDE rules. I figured that it would just be easier to ask the B player to turn off his CD player until he finished his game rather than get into a debate over this, and since he agreed, there was no problem.
My question is, if this is really a rule and the GM wasn’t playing me, how would we slip the PDAs in, and why is this necessary, anyway?
Alex
Wow, people don’t know how to set up something they don’t own. Stop the presses!
How is this about the idea of using a PDA as a notation aide?
15D. Use of opponent’s scoresheet for assistance.A player who has an incomplete scoresheet (13C7) and wishes to consult the opponent’s scoresheet for assistance may ask to borrow it from the opponent under the following conditions:
15D2. Borrower’s clock runs.The clock of the player making such a request is running and shall continue to run untill the scoresheet has been returned.
If someone has a PDA notation aide, the other person only has a scoresheet. If the opponent asks for the scoresheet, would get the PDA notation aide. If the person does not have a clue how to use this PDA notation aide, the opponent could be asking the owner of the PDA to fix the problem.
If someone with the PDA notation aide, wanted to win the game at any cost. Lets try this Nolan, I’ll be the one with the PDA notation aide, you would be the one needing to borrow my PDA notation aide. When you hand it back and ask for help. When you ask for my help, would tell you we would need to be talking, we should get up from our board and walk over to the other end of the room, or outside of the room to talk at a normal voice.
Would get up from the board and walk at a slow …normal … speed. When we get to the place to fix the scoresheet, would take my time to make sure we understand each other. Since you could have more then one error on you’re scoresheet, will copy down all the moves of the game for you. If you say yes to this, will walk to the directors table and get a new scoresheet for you, then walk right back to you (walking in a slow normal speed) with the new scoresheet. Will make sure the scoresheet would not have any errors, from myself making the copy for you.
We will walk back to the table, since the rules (rule 15D2) have to be enforced; since you asked for my aide, five or … ten minutes … or fifteen minutes (if being very slow) … could have … been used off … you’re clock. Since you had no clue how to use my PDA notation aide, then asked for my aide on you’re time, have all the time on you’re clock to get this job done. During that time, wanted to make sure the scoresheet was in perfect order.
It’s up to the player with the PDA to assist the opponent - clear and simple. This is new territory, and analogous to this situation is the responsibility of a player to inform his/her opponent on the use of an unusual chess clock. Maybe I would split the delay in time among both players, depending on the circumstances.
I’m not sure quoting 15D is helpful here, as 15D refers to “scoresheets” (pieces of paper with rows and columns suitable for recording moves using an intrument known as a pen or pencil)
Terry:
If the PDA’s are legal, would not have any choice (5th edition) then to enforce 15D. The rule book was not designed for use with any PDA notation aide. The direct borrowing of scoresheet to scoresheet, only aide would be the question of the persons handwritten move (if opponent cannot read or understand the move). If the owner of the PDA notation aide, had to let someone borrow their PDA notation aide, with the person not knowing how to use it. The owner of the PDA could shave off a number of minutes from their opponents clock.
The enforcement of rule 15D, a common problem at any event. Could be used by the owner of a PDA notation aide, in a unfair conduct. As rule 15D was not designed for so much aide (PDA notation), for the borrowing of a scoresheet. Since the (5th edition) does not have a rule (borrowing of PDA notation aide), how other then the use of 15D be enforced.
This would be much simpler and far less expensive. This would be a device that looks like a simple PDA or a small hand-held chess game/computer. Illegal move entry could be prevented, if the governing rules permit. It could possibly have a cable receptacle for an optional connection to a clock to capture the time remaining of the moves. The screen would contain a graphic display of a chess board (black/white reversible) for easy touch screen or 4-way button entry. Below the display would be the notation in text form with up and down buttons beside it for scrolling. It could use USB to communicate with a PC or other device, plus maybe an IR to transmit pgn files to PDAs. Individuals or tournament organizers could provide wireless capability using the USB, so the wireless protocol matches their receiving device. Wireless makes it possible to transmit one or many live games to another room, or to the world via the internet. This keeps it simple for the developer and flexible for the user.
The simple scroll feature would allow someone new to the device to use it with no problems for copying of notation, and they would even be able to read it!!! That’s actually an improvement over a lot of the scoresheets I’ve tried to read. 
The handheld device would be stripped down version of some existing chess playing products and could be developed in a short time with a very attractive price tag. The clock with the interface and connecting cable could follow.
As for people complaining about electronics, that’s why it needs to be simple, absolutely unable to do anything else and approved by a governing body like USCF or FIDE.
All of this is quite possible and nearly all the people I’ve talked to about it would buy one in a heartbeat. In fact, one organizer suggested buying a bunch of them for all players to use in the tournament, instead of scoresheets. They could have a copy of the games printed by the organizer when they leave, and be emailed the pgn file the next day. It would save a lot of time for organizers who publish games from scoresheets.
This has been an interesting thread and I look forward to more ideas.
Mike Swatek
Doug,
In this case, since neither player is actually helping the other in playing the game, just correcting moves, I don’t see why the one with the PDA couldn’t work with the opponent in displaying the moves needed to correct the scoresheet. The opponent wouldn’t have to know the details of the operation. The owner would be the one showing the moves the opponent needs.
And I’m not in favor of the PDA notation device controlling any clock, so there’s no problem with that happening.
I think the best term for such a device, since it isn’t strictly a PDA, is PCN, Personal Chess Notator.
Radishes
Doug,
This is what TDs are for: to make sure everyone plays fair, and “to arrive at fair and logical solutions to problems not specifically treated by these rules”. (1A)
The problem with a PDA or a PCN (Personal Chess Notator), is not the problem of cheating. If it was scoresheet to scoresheet, the borrowing of the scoresheet would not be an issue for the borrower, for having the clock running (on the borrower). Someone borrowing a scoresheet, could be asking what move they made – if they cannot read the handwritten scoresheet.
When someone is borrowing a scoresheet, and the scoresheet would be a Personal Chess Notator or whatever the official term is. The owner (PCN) could take a longer time to help correct the scoresheet. Since the borrowers clock is running, the owner of the (PCN) could wast the time off the borrowers clock.
Rule 1A was designed for something that never happened before at a event. Or something that nobody could have ever dream, then rule 1A would be used. Borrowing a scoresheet is expected to happen at a event. The argument I am making, the borrower of the scoresheet with the borrowers clock running – most established players do not know of this new rule (from the 5th edition).
Well, Jeez… Maybe I need to have my handwriting perfect. It takes them longer, big woopty doo! It’s not their opponent’s fault that they don’t know how to notate right.
What if the person didn’t notate, then what? Is that illegal?
Give me a break. The argument you are making is pretty laughable. I mean, you’re trying to blame your opponent for your poor notation taking? That’s like blaming me for you for losing my job.
Ha ha ha ha 