Player A walks up to you, the TD, and asks you the following question:
What would you do?
Chris Bird
[size=85](Even though this real life example may seem trivial to some of the more experienced TDs that frequent these forums, it may be a question that others have not come across or thought about and therefore the responses and clarifications posted here will provide what I hope is a useful lesson.)[/size]
Rule 14B1:
“The [offeree] may accept the proposal or may reject it either orally or be deliberately touching a piece.”
The draw offer has been rejected by the offeree’s conduct. He may now offer a draw himself, but he may not accept the old offer.
A follow-up question. The game in question was being played in a different room and I was not sure whether Player A had informed his opponent that he was seeking TD guidance.
As this situation could be applicable to any question asked of a TD, should the TD take any additional action other than just answering a “simple” rules question?
Chris Bird
Probably ought to go to the board and watch for a move or two to make sure there’s no dispute. Otherwise, no.
I don’t know of any rule requiring a player to inform his opponent that he is seeking TD guidance, as long as he leaves the clock running. If, however, player A stops his clock and leaves the room without saying anything, then I suppose player B would have a legitimate gripe, and might even be justified in restarting A’s clock.
TDs should be wary of questions asked during the game. Often the asker is conveniently omitting an important detail or two. Sometimes it might be better to follow the player back into the tournament room, and ask him to repeat his question in the presence of the opponent.
Bill Smythe
By touching the piece, you have declined the offer. You would need to now re-ask your opponent for the draw, because the piece you touched may be a total blunder and now you can be SOL with a losing move by touching that piece. If the piece you touched is insignificant or he/she doesn’t realise your blunder and accepts the draw, you’re good to go. The only response from a TD should be, if you touched a piece you’ve declined his offer and refer you to the correct section of the ruling, nothing leading or suggestive as to what you should do next.
Obviously all this presupposes an “intentional” touch. An inadvertent touch should have no more effect than at any other time.
Alex Relyea
I’d tell him to ask his opponent if the draw offer was still in force. A simple yes or no answer should close the matter.
I don’t think it would be proper for the player to ask his opponent this question. It’s in the same league as asking an opponent whether he is playing for a draw, without actually offering one. (As we’ve seen in other threads, many TDs would rule that this latter question constitutes a draw offer.)
By the same token, a TD should not suggest that the player ask this question, either.
Once the player has touched a piece, if he realizes his mistake and still wants the draw, he should go ahead and make his move, then offer a draw and press the clock.
If a player touches a piece and then asks the TD if his opponent’s draw offer still stands, the TD could reply “no, but you have the right to offer a draw yourself when you play your move.”
Bill Smythe
I see nothing improper at all, with asking that question, since the opponent already offered the draw. Maybe the opponent didn’t see the piece touch. Maybe the opponent considered that touch to be insignificant. Why complicate matters with rule interpretation minutiae? Just so someone can say, “Gotcha!”? This is a gentlemen’s game after all…
That comment seems to be a complete counter to the followup:
If you touch a piece, then you touched it whether your opponent saw you or not. It seems to me that the “gentlemen” makes his move and in turn offers a draw. He doesn’t try to take advantage of his opponent.
In part: Rule 14B1. Proper timing of draw offer…“The opponent may accept the proposal or may reject it either orally or by deliberately touching a piece…”
This is a very bad idea.
By rule, he has already rejected the draw offer. If he NOW wants a draw, all he has to do is make a move on the board and OFFER A DRAW.
Why complicate such a simple situation.
In general, players should not discuss the rules (or anything else) at the board. They ACT at the board.
If he wants to be cute, I suppose he could “accept” the draw - and in 90% of the cases, everyone would be happy. Just be aware that when one player starts being “cute”, the other player is likely to join in. If I were the opponent, I would say “you rejected my draw offer - and have now made an offer of your own (improperly, but I’m going to hold you to it) - please make your move and I will consider your offer”.
What’s he supposed to do? Move and say he accepts his draw offer?
Move and offer a draw, so he looks to be either deaf or stupid?
Seems to me you are the one making it complicated…
I guess chess is just not as cut-throat in Michigan as it seems to be elsewhere…
Well, yeah, he’s supposed to move and re-offer the draw. It’s entirely possible that the move, or any legal move with the touched piece, is a blunder which makes the opponent no longer want a draw.
To put it another way, let’s say that Black offers a draw. White assesses the position as +/=, but then touches a piece that will (best case) change the position to -/+. He’d sure like to have the draw offer back, but how is that fair to Black?
Alex Relyea
Was it a FIDE rated event or only USCF?
If so here is the FIDE rule:
Article 9: The drawn game
9.1 A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent`s clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid, but Article 12.6 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.
Of these two, the second choice is better. He has already made himself look stupid anyway, by declining a draw offer he should have gladly accepted. The first choice means that he is “accepting” a draw offer that is not on the table.
Bill Smythe
He can’t move and accept the draw. As Tim Just pointed out, by touching the piece he has already rejected it. If he tries to accept the draw offer then he is simply cheating, albeit presumably unintentionally. Nothing complicated about that in my mind. If he wants a draw now, he has to move and offer one himself to be legal.
I suppose, if the player wants to avoid looking stupid, he could say “if you still want the draw, I’ll take it now”. Any TD would consider this to be a draw offer. Of course, the player should make such a statement only at the time he actually moves the piece he touched.
Bill Smythe
Nope - wrong answer. When he touched the piece he rejected the draw offer. If he inadvertantly hit the piece - say with the back of his hand while reaching toward the clock to turn it off as he accepted the offer - that, of course, would not count as deliberately touching as we all know. Just thought it ought to be said though.