The Mon Roi has a score sheet view which makes it easy to verify 3 fold repetition, 50 move rule, etc. It would not be necessary to print a score in the middle of the game. Besides one would not be able to do that without recording a result for the game. Once one starts recording a game the only thing the player can do is make corrections to the score, and switch between board and score sheet views. None of the other functions of the unit are available until the result has be recorded and the game saved.
It seems to me players that keep their own scorebook, rather than use the provided scoresheets, have much the same challenge. How do they solve their problems? Could the player keep a scoresheet and then enter the game later in the Monroi? It just seems like there are solutions that are not all that bad.
It seems to me more of a problem is being made here than actually exists. How many TDs/players have had this situation? Is it a lot or is it rare?
This whole discussion reminds me of past discussions on the digital delay clock; i.e., the possible challenges far outnumbered the real challenges.
Agreed.
I look forward to the day when most players have a MonRoi (never happen at $350 per); and when that enables local T.D.'s to post all games scores in .PGN on a simple web site (without that being such a time-consuming effort for the TD).
Many games from class A players are printed in the local state monthly chess magazine, but only rarely are class B C D games published. Personally I am more interested in replaying a recent game between two class C players whom I have faced before (or might face), than yet another game from an often covered class A player I never face.
MonRoi-derived .PGN files reduce this problem.
If I’m the TD, no player is going to touch my computer. If the organizer requires a scoresheet, then the player will supply a hardcopy using his own resources, not mine.
Now, if I supply (say) MonRoi devices, and require the players to use them, then the burden to produce a hard copy scoresheet shifts to me. But, if the individual player walks in with (say) a MonRoi and says “this is my scoresheet”, then he can either give me the MonRoi at the end of round 1 (no, he’s not getting it back), or he can produce his own hard copy. I don’t care how he does it.
At many events where the Organizer has supplied (say) MonRoi devices, I see players using BOTH the MonRoi AND their personal paper scoresheets. Nothing wrong with that. Similarly, if the TD supplies paper scoresheets and insists that they be handed in, I see no problem with a player using the paper scoresheet AND the MonRoi to record the game.
so…what’s the big deal?
Amen.
Time to lock this thread?
Bill Smythe
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You make an important point: I would not want a bunch of MonRoi users sticking their memory cards into my laptop either.
Yet the whole MonRoi usage model seems to imply this is necessary, or that the TD just cannot have a copy of the game scoresheet until the player hopefully remembers to email it in plain ascii text the next day.
The truth is that TDs rarely care about having the scoresheets. That is the real usage model for amateur MonRoi owners.
Recently here in Washington state, a couple of TO’s have gotten serious about posting .PGN files of all the tournament’s games. A generous fellow uses Fritz (or ChessBase?) to hand-enter all the legible scoresheets!
This is a straw man question. All I said was it is not a quick trivial task to write a hand copy of the two electronic game score sheets you captured on your MonRoi that day.
This topic is titled “Electronic score sheets”, and even the most recent posts include discussions of MonRoi. Yet here on the second screen you try to lock the thread from people who might want to continue the discussion?
Why does it bother you if others continue to discuss a topic, on topic?
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Oh, I don’t know. I guess I felt the topic had already played itself out, even on the second screen.
Bill Smythe
As a Mon Roi user who has played in many tournaments I’ve yet to have anyone demand a hard copy scoresheet from me. (Not that anyone REALLY wants to see my games.) I’ve played in few tournaments with a live Mon Roi feed. To even get my games included I have to tell the Mon Roi operator which section I’m in so that they can include my pairing. They still have to do it manually.
I don’t think there’s a huge demand for getting scoresheets from every single player in a tournament. Usually if there’s a bulletin, the editor will want games from the top boards, and then ask players from other sections to submit interesting games.
I agree with Tim that it’s much ado about nothing. Though unlike the delay clock I don’t see the Mon Roi becoming the preferred method. I think it’s a piece of equipment that is used by a small group of players. It will remain that way unless the price comes down.
I think some players and TDs believe that the Monroi gives an unfair advantage to a player and do NOT want them used at all until everybody has one. And probably, if you bring one to their event where "Scoresheets will be furnished" you will not be allowed to use it.
I would want to think the organizer would have to advertise that electronic scoresheets are not allowed in the event assuming the electronic scoresheet in question is certified by the USCF.
I think he was advised by the USCF office that "are not allowed" is bad policy and that "Scoresheets will be furnished" will be in accordance with the Rulebook and do the job. I do not believe anyone has brought a Monroi so the situation has not occurred where he or a player's opponent protested its use. In another case, a parent's child was upset at a National event where his child's opponent keep "playing" with the Monroi which may not have been in "off" mode.
I don’t believe any electronic scoresheet device has ever been ‘certified’ by the USCF. The USCF has an endorsement relationship with MonRoi, which IMHO is essentially the same as an advertisement.
I don’t know if the Rules Committee (which as I recall was not consulted before the MonRoi endorsement deal was made) has addressed the issue of whether an organizer is REQUIRED to permit a player to use his/her MonRoi or whether the organizer must make any restrictions on their use a part of all pre-event publicity.
Here's what USCF says regarding certification and it appears that the Monroi is certified (click on the link):
TD TIP: Tournament directors are advised to be flexible on the above. Many players have their own scoresheet in the form of notebooks or recording devices, and prefer to keep their games in an orderly fashion within that book. If a player can provide a copy of the score from their notebook, or a printout or downloaded from the electronic scoresheet, this is acceptable. You have the score and the result of the game. Contact the USCF office regarding the policies and guidelines for electronic scorekeeping devices. A current copy of those guidelines can be found at (as of August 2007): [uschess.org/ratings/electronicscoresheet.pdf](http://www.uschess.org/ratings/electronicscoresheet.pdf).
That seems to settle that.
[quote="CoachBob
I think some players and TDs believe that the Monroi gives an unfair advantage to a player and do NOT want them used at all until everybody has one. And probably, if you bring one to their event where “Scoresheets will be furnished” you will not be allowed to use it.[/quote]
I discussed this with the TD in question; he states that his intent is to discourage the use of electronic devices. He feels that if a player must simultaneously record his moves on the provided scoresheet and also on the Monroi, he will be need more time and logically not use the device. He will allow use of a Monroi, but expects the provided scoresheet to be completed first.
For those not familiar with new Rule 43 (not in the current edition of the Rulebook) here it is:
43: Scoresheets: A scoresheet is any piece of paper, electronic, or mechanical recording device that allows a player to comply with rule 15A. Electronic scoresheets are subject to certification guidelines as published by the USCF. An electronic scoresheet not so certified is not considered standard and may only be used at the discretion of the tournament director.
Often a pre-printed scoresheet has spaces indication players names, event, other game related information, spaces for the recording of the moves, result and the signatures of the players.
If a scoresheet is provided by the event, then that scoresheet is the standard used for that event.
If a scoresheet is not provided by the event, then any method of keeping score is allowed provided it meets the rules established in 15A.
If an event, even when it provides scoresheets, does not require that a copy of the score be submitted, then the TD may allow the use of any method of keeping score.
If an event requires that a copy of the score to be submitted, the TD may require the use of the scoresheet provided, or alternately may accept any method of providing that score.
A TD may require the use of the provided scoresheet, or may allow non-standard scoresheets to be used even if one is provided.
Well, that’s one TD in whose events I would not play twice.
Alex Relyea
Lets turn this question around. Suppose there was a tournament where all players are provided with a Monroi. What if 1 player refuses to use the Monroi, claiming that it would give their opponents an unfair advantage. Personally I will not use a Monroi, because I still use descriptive notation and that is how I want my game score to be recorded. Monroi will not do descriptive notation. If the Monroi is the “official” score sheet for the tournament, then someone like me would need to keep two scores at the same time in order to get a score sheet in descriptive notation. As previously pointed out, such action would require extra time over an individual using only a Monroi. I do not see the trouble with someone keeping score in any manner provided that if requested by the director and/or organizer a copy is provided of any game. I have seen players [and not just kids] keep score on notebook paper.
Larry S. Cohen