I can understand that. As it turns out, that’s not an issue for me, as I have always looked at the clock after depressing my plunger. If one is not used to looking at the clock after hitting it, I imagine that tactile feedback is quite important.
I was weaned on cheap analog clocks, where aside from winding issues, it wasn’t necessarily guaranteed that either my clock had stopped or my opponent’s clock had started as a result of my action. So, I always checked the clock as a precaution anyway. Then, I started recording move times at various points during the game as well.
Is this true of the “click” sound the Chronos can make when the touch sensor is touched and activated?
On my Chronos II Touch the pitch or tone, if you would, can be raised and/or lowered. I remember changing the one on mine when I first got the clock. I didn’t like it, no matter what the pitch, so turned it off and it remains off all this time. Now, I only use this clock for very slow time controls where there is very little chance that the button be pushed in any kind of hurried manner. I have a Chronos II button model of the same age and use that one most of the time. I like the tactile feel of the button depressing to know I have activated it. As an aside, those buttons are the same as the old electric IBM typewriters and keyboards. I found this out when buying replacement and different colored buttons.
Anyway, I think a TD could be convinced that the low tone on the Chronos II Touch that can be had on it, would be low enough in both volume and pitch to be a lot like the sound of the “click” when a button type of clock is used.
Of course, I have never seen anyone that owned one of these clocks have that sound turned on anyway.
I just received a DGT 3000, and it makes me appreciate this comment more. The DGT 3000 makes quite a clunking noise every time you hit the rocker. But there is also no question whether the player hit the clock or not. The rocker is either up or down. There is no in between.
I think I have finally figured out the major problem with some people and the rule book. It is simply an over literal interpretation of the rules.
For example in the above rule it can be easily argued that a touch sensor clock is preferred over a not touch digital clock because the non digitals make noise when their buttons are pressed. And since they can’t be set to not do that then the touch buttons would be preferred.
On the other hand I have heard the sound that Ron Suarez has referred to and it isn’t a beep sound or loud at all,
set properly it basically emulates the click of a regular clock. That click almost has a feel to it when touching the touch sensor. I would have no problem as a TD allowing that since it is less noisy than the regular digital clocks.
File it under TD discretion if necessary.
I am the author of the ADM that established the current rule 16B.
The argument about touch sensor clocks being more preferred than non-touch sensor clocks is specious. Rule 16B2a starts “digital clocks must be set to produce no sound.” Whether a clock has touch sensors or mechanical plungers is not a clock setting.
I agree with you totally Ken, But that doesn’t stop someone from arguing
that their clock can be set to have no sound (touchpad) and the other digital clock without the capability of setting that should be preferred. It is right there in black and white in the rules. It isn’t their fault that the non touch pad version doesn’t have the capability of setting it to silent.
Rule 16B refers to a changeable setting on a clock; i.e., whether the clock emits a beep or other programmed noise when its plungers are depressed.
While I see Mr. Zimmerle’s point, I am not certain that Mr. Relyea was referring to anything other than a setting as indicated above. If, however, one were to make the argument Mr. Zimmerle mentions to me as a director, it would receive very short shrift.
Again I agree. Which is why I believe a TD should be able to use a little common sense vs literal interpretations of the rule book.
Most of the tournaments I am directing lately are Monday night events in a cafeteria of a HyVee grocery store where we are unable to have complete control over noise anyway. If some one complained to me that their opponents clock was making a tick or clicking sound when pressed ( not a beep ), if that sound was equal or less than a normal digital clock I would say that it was ok and go on from there.
Directors already have the ability to use discretionary authority for situations not specifically covered in the rulebook, as vested in them by Rule 1A. (The phrase “not specifically covered” can be creatively stretched, but this has limits.) Other than that, directors should simply apply the rules as written, IMO.
Regarding Mr. Zimmerle’s HyVee example: Given the surroundings, I think that’s a defensible position. My one counter argument might be that, as a player, I can adjust to or deal with ambient noise in my surroundings, but the noise created directly from the event should be kept to an absolute minimum - including programmable clock beeps.
I don’t know how we ever survived during the noisy analog clock period. I recall slight distractions when the board next to me would get into a time scramble, and the clicks and pops of plungers could be heard throughout the room. On more than one occasion, my opponent and I would agree to stop our clocks until the time scramble was over.
The default Chronos beep I would disallow, that is annoying, what I would allow is the altered version which I have heard which sounds more like a click of a button being pushed.
I can see the argument. My approach might go like this. (NOTE: This assumes I concur with Mr. Zimmerle’s interpretation of the programmable sound. The following would not, however, depend on the playing environment.)
If a player complained to me about the altered version mentioned above, I’d try to convince him that (a) it’s not very loud, and (b) the sound is very similar to the sound a plunger makes on a regular Chronos - which makes it much less annoying than, say, the Excalibur GameTime plunger. Often, for such minor complaints, simply talking to the player about the situation in a calm and empathetic manner is sufficient.
If the player insists even after that conversation, though, I don’t think I have any choice but to enforce Rule 16B. YMMV.
The click, if enabled, on the Chronos touch pad (biopad?) is so soft it can barely be heard. Compare that to the pronounced “clack” sound by pressing of the plunger of a Gametimer. The rubberized plastic plungers on the DGT make a dull thud sound. That is tolerable for the most part. In time scrambles all of the clocks get banged hard and cause noise problems for nearby competitors.
This discussion makes me pine for the old Insa analog clock I used to use in tournaments. The pressing of the black button on the top made very little sound when pressed, certainly much quieter than the BHB and Jerger clocks during the staccato bashing of time pressure. All of the questions on the infirmities of the Chronos will become moot when the last of those timers die out in a couple of years unless some company resurrects the ugly, over priced, cheaply made, shoddy beasts.
What was the reasoning behind requiring digital clocks to be set to produce no sound (if they have such a setting)?
Non-digital clocks usually make sound. My Jerger makes a quite noticeable click with even a casual button press, for instance. My BHB makes more of a thud, unless it is pressed in a hurry. My point is that analog clocks made a variety of sounds, sometimes fairly loud, during normal use, and players were fine with these. I’m sure many grew used to this audio feedback.
Thus, I cannot see any reason in general to prohibit digital clocks from making a similar sound. I can see not wanting to have obnoxious beeps and buzzes, especially if each clock maker came up with their own crazy sound. But instead of banning sound, why not specify acceptable parameters? For instance, allow artificial clicks that are shorter than a specified duration and below a specified maximum allowance, and specified frequency components, and allow the use of sampled analog clock presses from an official set of samples provided by the USCF.
The reasoning was that some clocks, in some modes, make an incredibly annoying sound of one sort or another with each button press – annoying both to the opponent and to anybody within about 50 feet.
One of my opponents in a recent tournament had one of those – a cheap Saitek that made a loud beep on every move. It was clearly bothering other players in the vicinity. I considered asking him to shut off the beep, but I refrained from making that request, because I wasn’t sure if such an adjustment was possible mid-game (without resetting the time), nor even if such an adjustment was possible at all, nor whether my opponent would know how to do it.
In evaluating the desirability of a small sound when the clock is pressed, one should ask whether the total sound (clock plus players) would likely be better or worse without the clock sound. With the Chronos touch, for example, it is likely that, without the click, the players would tend to hit the clock harder in an attempt to ensure that the hit registered properly. The resulting loud thump would likely be more annoying than the soft click would have been.
For future reference, it is possible to turn the incredibly annoying beeping of a blue Saitek clock off without disturbing the clock setting at all. The switch on the bottom has positions “off”, “on”, and “on with sound”. Just move the slider to the “on” position.
I personally don’t like even the relatively low sound the Chronos Touch makes. I have played with the pitch (I believe the volume stays constant). I have turned that sound off on my Chronos Touch pretty much when I first got the clock and tried out the sounds and other functions. I felt at the time the low pitched sound was still too distracting during a tournament. “wzim” is my friend Wayne and we play an average of 2 hours a week against each other. Wayne is recalling the time I tried that sound on that Chronos clock and it was fine by him. I just don’t like it. If the sound were more of a “click” than even the deep and low “beep” it would be better.
Yes, the lower pitched sounds are not that annoying beep other clocks have. I have more than a dozen of the blue Saitek clocks that I bought in bulk a number of years ago from Dewain Barber when he still owned American Chess Equipment, for my scholastic club. Yes, the switch on the bottom of the clock can be changed to no sound without disrupting the settings or even the running of the clock. It is still annoying to me during our club of 38 kids when some of the kids have that infernal beep turned on. I also always have the beep turned off on the Excalibur GameTime clocks as well.
Bill, the touch sensors are just a round metal disk and there really is no bashing of them possible. I guess you could slap the clock and make a noise. My biggest problem with the touch sensors (and I have ownership experience with both the Chronos and a ZMF-II that I just sold cheap to a student) is not necessarily the lack of sound. It is the lack of the motion feedback that a button or rocker arm provides. You can actually feel the button depress, where there is no motion whatsoever when you activate the touch sensor.
From what I understand, the touch sensors are less expensive to put on a clock than buttons. The touch sensors also don’t seem to have the mechanical breakdowns the button models have, but that might not be significant. I talked with a person that knows about this and he says the touch sensors are more attractive to the manufacturer.
It is simply an over literal interpretation of the rules.