Minimum base time

Running Chess Tournaments
21

I think it is safe to repeat the comments that the regulars enjoy it while some people refuse to play that time control (normal market forces).

PS The affiliate number starts with an A and thus is not a scholastic affiliate even though there may be a lot of high school kids playing in the events.

PPS pretty much every club tournament my club runs is a money losing event even though there are no monetary prizes (no entry fee, rent for the site for the week, rating fee, cost of the trophy). They are considered a benefit of being a club member.

22

I’ve updated my post on the ‘G/5;d25’ events, only 9 of 81 events were run by the high school affiliate. However, 75 of the 81 events had the same chief TD. Chess Palace ran some events at this time control in 2014.

Over 230 players have played in events at this time control.

23

Under my proposal, they still would be. Not only that, but the deterministic algorithm would remain exactly as it is now:

    1. Is mm+ss at least 30? If so, REGULAR.
    1. Else, is mm+ss at least 11? If so, QUICK.
    1. Else, BLITZ.

Let’s call this Part A. It would not change at all.

Now let’s look at Part B, the part that determines whether the time control is ratable to begin with. At present, we have:

  • First, determine category, as in Part A. Then:
  • REGULAR: Ratable if and only if mm is at least 5.
  • QUICK: Ratable if and only mm is at least 5.
  • BLITZ: Ratable if and only if mm is at least 3.

This would change only in the specific numbers:

  • First, determine category, as in Part A. Then:
  • REGULAR: Ratable if and only if mm is at least 25.
  • QUICK: Ratable if and only mm is at least 8.
  • BLITZ: Ratable if and only if mm is at least 3.

There you go. No increase in complexity.

I hope the same. That’s one reason I dislike those “proportional” ideas, like ss being at most 1/2 or 1/3 or 2/3 of mm.

On top of all the above, I am concerned about the integrity of the regular rating system. At present, the regular system is the shining star of U.S. Chess. By contrast, the other systems (quick and blitz) are largely thought of as “fun” systems, or perhaps even “junk” systems.

In the beginning, there was only one system. Minimum mm was 60, and fastest allowable was 2 minutes per move (e.g. 30/60). Later, fastest allowable was changed to 1.5 minutes per move (e.g. 40/60). Still later, sudden death was introduced, and minimum mm was reduced to 30.

Then, the quick system was introduced, to handle mm < 30. Creating the quick system reduced the political pressure to reduce regular mm still further. Now we even have blitz. Therefore, there is no longer any need to continue speeding up the regular system.

Please, let’s defend the world’s best rating system, and not allow it to become polluted with junk like G/15 d/15 or G/5 d/25.

Bill Smythe

24

Questions. There are no stated upper limits but only those implied in part A, and part A seems to preclude dual rated events (I am fine with ending dual rated events)
Would G/45;+30 be ratable only in the regular system?
Would G/25;d10 be ratable only in the regular system?
Would G/30;d0 be ratable only in the regular system?
Would G/20;d10 be ratable only in the quick system? or not ratable?
Would G/20;d5 be ratable only in the quick system?
Would G15;+60 be ratable only in the quick system? or not ratable?
Would G/5;d25 be ratable only in the blitz system? or not ratable?
Would G/5;+75 be ratable only in the blitz system? or not ratable?
Would G/8;d3 be ratable only in the quick system?
Would G/7;d4 be ratable only in the blitz system? or not ratable?

25

Not necessarily. The best (at least, the simplest) way to handle dual-rated events would be to add a part C to my parts A and B:

  • Is the event REGULAR, as determined in part A?
  • If yes, is it ratable, as determined in part B?
  • If yes to both, is mm+ss less than 66 (i.e. is it 65 or less)?
  • If yes to all, then ALSO QUICK (i.e. DUAL).

Based on this new part C, let me take a crack at your individual questions:

Would G/45;+30 be ratable only in the regular system? YES
Would G/25;d10 be ratable only in the regular system? NO, it would be dual.
Would G/30;d0 be ratable only in the regular system? NO, it would be dual.
Would G/20;d10 be ratable only in the quick system? or not ratable? NOT RATABLE
Would G/20;d5 be ratable only in the quick system? YES
Would G15;+60 be ratable only in the quick system? or not ratable? NOT RATABLE
Would G/5;d25 be ratable only in the blitz system? or not ratable? NOT RATABLE
Would G/5;+75 be ratable only in the blitz system? or not ratable? NOT RATABLE
Would G/8;d3 be ratable only in the quick system? YES
Would G/7;d4 be ratable only in the blitz system? or not ratable? NOT RATABLE

I note that most, if not all, of those I marked NOT RATABLE involve short main times and (relatively) long delay or increment times. That helps assure me that I am on the right track with my ideas.

Of course, I would also be OK (as you are too) with eliminating dual-rating entirely.

Bill Smythe

26

Looking at those G/5;d25 events, aside from the time control line it is difficult to see any impact of the time control used.

I’m not yet convinced unconventional time controls are a problem that needs to be addressed. The biggest impact I see is that since it is a delay time control, you can’t build up a reserve for a long think, like you probably would if it was G/5;+25.

There used to be a player in Nebraska who was known for spending 20 minutes or more before making his first move, he might have problems with such a time control.

27

So, to verify:
G/25;d6 is dual ratable (or regular only if dual is dropped)
G/25;d5 is dual ratable (or regular only if dual is dropped)
G/24;d5 is quick ratable
G/24;d6 is not ratable
G/9;d20 is quick ratable
G/10;d20 is not ratable

G/8;d4 is quick ratable
G/8;d3 is quick ratable
G/7;d3 is blitz ratable
G/7;d4 is not ratable

Checking the border points is always “fun”. It seems weird to make G/20;d10 not ratable while G/9;d20 is quick ratable.

28

G/20 d/10 is not ratable because it tries to have a dual personality: regular because of mm+ss but quick because of mm.

There will always be border points, as long as there are borders, i.e. as long as there are criteria based on whether some analog-ish quantity is on one side or the other of a line.

You could equally well find it “weird” in more sensible examples, such as G/25 d/5 being regular while G/24 d/5 is quick, or G/3 inc/2 being blitz while G/2 inc/3 is not ratable.

Bill Smythe

29

You wanted to know if you were on the right track. This example seems to me to clearly indicate that you aren’t. G/20, d/10 and G/25, d/5 aren’t all that different and I doubt that there are very many people who would willingly play in one but refuse to play in the other.

30

There is a problem with the integrity of the rating system. The person who has been running these events pointed out, in a PM to Jeff and me, that either player could force the game into a “scorekeeping not required” situation just by taking 26 seconds to play his first move. That way, one of the players is below 5 minutes (4:59) so both players are excused from keeping score, for the entire game. And it wouldn’t even cost the player 26 seconds; it would cost only 1 second, because the first 25 seconds is delay (non-cumulative) rather than increment (cumulative).

The biggest difference between regular and quick is that scorekeeping is required in the former, but not in the latter. A time control that allows a player to spit in the face of this requirement, should not be permitted to pollute the system. Anybody who wants to play in a scorekeeping-not-required environment should simply play in a quick-rated event to begin with.

Indeed he would. He would forfeit the game before he made his first move.

Bill Smythe

31

Neither are G/29 d/0 and G/30 d/0, yet they fall into different rating categories. As I said before, whenever you have borders, you will always have border cases – that’s inevitable.

Bill Smythe

32

Most of the time controls listed are outside of the pre-sets list on a number of clocks. IMO, the base time in minutes should be the more important consideration for determining which rating system will be used. For example, Game 30 or higher, regular. Game 10 to Game 25, Quick. Game 5 or faster, Blitz. Dispense with dual rating. Drop from rating the odd time controls like Game 6 to 9 and Game 26 to 29. Establish the list and stick with it. Organizers are free to run whatever non-rated time controls they wish. The USCF should have easily understood standards. This will make it easier for the players and the TDs to set clocks.

If we are going to speed up the game, then any time control of 30 minutes or less, regardless of increment or delay, should not require writing moves down. When US Chess opens up the game to the general public at some time in the future, many of them are not going to know chess notation and will be put off by writing moves down. If it is hard for TDs to manage mass tournaments, well then it will just be hard, requiring more TDs to be on hand. We may have to dispense with some rules that were designed for professionals. The goal will be to improve the experience for a wider range of players. Chess should be fun, not an algebra test.

33

One of the justifications for having so many rules (compared to FIDE) is that all those additional rules are intended for games involving non-professionals.

I’ve been involved in many scholastic events where scoresheets were, at best, optional, I don’t see life as we know it ending if we were to extend that to all games with a time control under some total time limit. Players would have to understand that not having a scoresheet impacts the claims they can make.

Personally, I’d be comfortable with saying that recording moves is not required in OTB events whenever the total time is less than 30 minutes per player, in other words, in any blitz or quick-only events. (I think that’s basically what the rule book said at one point.)

For online events, I think everyone assumes the online host site will take care of notation issues. Illegal move situations shouldn’t occur. I don’t know how one makes certain claims under such conditions, though. How does a player stop the clocks and summon a TD? Does the host site automatically award wins on time? Does it handle three-fold repetition claims?

34

First of all, the border between two categories (where both are ratable, but with different systems) is a completely different animal than between ratable (under some system) and not ratable. G/25, d/5 is almost certainly the most common 30 minute T/C and G/20, d/10 is (in practice) almost indistinguishable from it. Drawing a bright line between those two makes no sense.

35

Line-drawing is always a bit subjective, and it isn’t just in Bugs Bunny cartoons that it leads to Yosemite Sam stepping off a cliff.

If G/20;d10 is OK, what about G/19;d11 or G/18;d12? Where’s the line?

36

I think G15;d15 is borderline (G15;+15 is probably a better choice if someone wants to do something like that). Aside from those G/5;d25, how many sections with 30 minute T/C’s have ever been run with mm<20? mm>=ss is a simple rule which (I suspect) puts the line where it doesn’t really seem to be excluding any meaningful number of tournaments.

37

Well, to the person who has run over 70 events at G/5;d25, it might seem that your line excludes a meaningful number of events!

But it is worth noting that there have been over 187,000 sections since 2013 that met the MM > SS requirement and 1128 where it did not (including 804 where MM = SS.)

Here’s the complete list. (The time control for the 2/2 event was changed after the event passed validation, it should probably be 3/2.)

[code]mm ss count

2 2 1
3 3 18
3 4 1
3 5 17
3 7 1
4 5 1
5 5 507
5 7 2
5 10 169
5 15 1
5 24 1
5 25 81
5 29 1
5 35 1
5 45 1
6 6 1
7 7 3
7 10 22
10 10 25
10 30 4
12 12 1
14 14 2
15 15 72
20 20 2
20 30 12
20 99 1
25 25 5
25 30 1
25 54 6
30 30 150
30 60 1
33 33 4
45 45 9
60 60 2
90 90 2[/code]

38

Can anyone explain the 25/54? There were six of them, so it doesn’t seem to be a typo. Does anything magical happen at mm+ss>=80 that would cause someone to try to keep it at 79?

39

I don’t know of anything that would change at MM+SS=80.

This was one event in 2017 run at G/25;d54 with six sections.

It could have been a typo (d54 instead of d4 or d5), I suppose. If that was done during the file upload process as the default time control, it’d get put in all sections, would have passed validation, and maybe the TD didn’t even notice it. (I sometimes wonder if I could stick a quote from the Gettysburg Address in the middle of a validation report–would anyone notice it?)

Someone might want to check with the TD, because that makes a difference as to whether the event is quick-only, dual rated or regular-only. I’ve notified the office.

Like I’ve said before, real data is messy. The more you dig into it, the more you find out things you probably didn’t want to know.

40

I thought it still did, until somebody (probably Micah Smith) noticed its absence in the 7th edition. It seems to still be the de facto rule that all players and TDs live by.

Here is a (very wild) guess.

Once upon a time – before sudden death, and well before quick ratings – the fastest allowable rate of play was 2 minutes per move, and the most popular number of moves in the first control was (and apparently still is) 40. This combination led to several one-day events being played at 40/80.

(There were a bunch of these, for example, in Peoria. Nowadays, Peoria still uses 80, but it’s G/80 d/5.)

So, after all these decades, maybe somebody is gingerly stepping inside the 80-minute barrier, to prove that things are faster nowadays? :laughing:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Mike, you come up with pearls of wisdom often. This is one of your best.

Bill Smythe