Pre-K player in a Scholastic Tournament

Running Chess Tournaments
1

I am the TD for a Scholastic tournamnet on 1/29. The flyer for this tournament, and all other Scholastic tournaments I have been involved with over the past three years, advertise the scetions as K-1, K-3, K-5 and K-8.

I have a parent who is entering a Pre-K player. I had the same situation last year with a different family who will be at this tournament also. Last year, the ruling I made, based on my understanding of the rules and consulting with another local TD, was that the Pre-K player could participate, but was not eligible for any of the advertised prises(trophies) because they were outside the advertised prize group.

This new family is claiming that their state organization(Illinois) allowed him to play and receive a trophy, as did the national tournament in Florida.

What is the proper ruling?

Thanks,
Mike

2

The starting age for Kidergarden, would be at 5 or 6 years old. Will not get into the debate of having a child at that age started in any tournament.

Since this should be the only pre-kidergarden, it would be unnatural and unfair to give a trophy away for only one player. How to make this clear. If knowing someones scholastic name is John Doe, or Johns Does’ rating is 560, would it be fair to give a trophy away for the best results for John Doe or a best results of a 560 rated player. That would be a pre-approved trophy, as only knowing of one player with that rating or having a player with the name John Doe. Since you did not advertise a trophy for a pre-kidergarden, if you give a trophy, it would look from a number of people as a pre-approved trophy.

Not sure, if the same parents that came last year in the pre-kidergarden, would still have their child in the pre-kidergarden section. It is up to the director, would use the same format as you’re tournament of last year.

3

Douglas,
Thanks for the quick response. Based on your answer, let me attempt to fine tune the circumstances. I understand your response and logic, however, the only available section to put the Pre-K in is the K-1 section. It is in the K-1 section that the parent wants trophy eligiblity.

The family from last year, and it was a different local tournament, is registered for this tournament AND will notice if this player is treated different than their daughter was last year. This does not bother me, I just need to know how the rules apply to awarding a Pre-K player, playing in the K-1 section, a K-1 trophy.

Thanks,
Mike

4

Let him play, and if he wins give him a trophy. Shame on anyone who would deprive this youngster of an award.

Technically, there is no section for this player. So, buying an extra award for this player would seem appropriate, so as to not kick out an otherwise eligible player in the K-3. In the future, I would suggest advertising 3rd and under as opposed to K-3.

Doug, once again you’re wrong! We do this all the time in adult tournaments. Please see 32C2.

5

Since you will be having a Pre-K playing in the K-1 section, then the Pre-K would be playing up a section. Would treat the prize (trophy), as you would the same way you would if someone wanted to play up a section.

6

Senior Director Terry Winchester:

rule 32C2. One player in class. An announced class prize must be awarded even if only one player in that class completes the schedule, unless otherwise advertised.

If I am once again wrong, then after the advertisment has been published. Would you support a director having a playing directors prize? What would the difference be then given out a special prize after the advertisement has been published. As its fair for you to have a special prize (trophy for Pre-K) in you’re support, would not a special prize (playing directors prize) for any other event be as equal. If a director has a special prize, like a playing directors prize. How many players and the organizers would be happy with a director, just to offer a playing directors prize of say a life membership to the USCF. Again, there is only one playing director for this special prize after the advertisment. Then you support a special prize after the advertisment, for this pre-K player.

If you are right Senior Director Terry Winchester, would love to be the director of a USCF sponsored event. Would find some way to offer myself a special prize, the prize of a life membership would be sweet. Do hope you’re right and myself oh so wrong.

7

The best answer may depend upon the announced prizes.

If there are ‘place’ prizes, then all players permitted to play in the section are eligible for them.

That would include players who are playing up, which in effect a Pre-K is doing.

This is no different than if you let a 1200 player into your Open section rather than the Under 2000 section and he finishes high enough to be among the top place prizes, even though he isn’t eligible for the Class B prize.

If, however, all of the prizes are ‘class’ (or in this case ‘grade’) prizes, then only those who are members of that class are eligible for those prizes.

In other words, if there are 1st, 2nd and 3rd place prizes, I would say the Pre-K is eligible for those prizes. If there are 1st Grade 1 and 2nd Grade1 prizes or 1st K and 2nd K prizes, then the Pre-K is NOT eligible for those prizes.

Long term, these events should be redesigned, either by including Pre-K with K or by making that a separate grade level.

If this isn’t quite how you handled the situation last year, that’s OK, you’re smarter now than you were a year ago, so you’re a better TD now, too. :slight_smile:

8

Mike,

What are your announced prized for the K-1 section? This will help keep me from speaking in generalities, which often can be imprecise.

9

Mike,

your ad at KCA indicates team trophies only for K1 and K8. Are you giving out individual trophies as well? And what is Steve Dillard’s opinion on this situation? You have a very good NTD in him, and he should be able to do as he always does: rule fair and impartial!

10

Not very sure how many scholastic players are at the age, or would be at a level younger then the K-12 group. Since the age of being in kidergarden, would be at 5 or 6 years. Always have questions of starting someone at these low grade levels, as the younger they become, its more important for the parents then the scholastic player. If there is a number of scholastic players under the age of 5, that would warrent organizers to add a pre-kidergarden.

Do not see how that would do any good for the player. There are a number of scholastic players in the K-1, only play for one year and never rejoin the federation. When they do become adults, how many will say they have a childhood memory of being in a tournament.

11

For K-1, the flyer lists Top 15 individual, Top 6 teams and participation trophies to all others. I just received another Pre-K entry.

I have not talked with Steve yet, although he is the floor td for this tournament. He and I tag team most of the larger Scholastics, as they range from 230 to 350 players. I do the computer entries, run the computer and score-keepers and submit the tournament. Steve takes care of the tournament floor. We vary as to who is the “Chief” TD, but it really does not matter. I value and respect Steve’s opinion and experience.

I need to be able to defend my or Steve’s decision to at least 3 different families and maybe two coaches. The one I would not allow to compete for a trophy last year and the two entering this year.

12

I think Mike Nolan’s answer is correct here:

It seems to me that your stuation falls under the “If there are 1st Grade 1 and 2nd Grade1 prizes or 1st K and 2nd K prizes, then the Pre-K is NOT eligible for those prizes” part of nolan’s quote. Therefore, according to the way you advertised the tournament, the pre-K would not be eligible for K-1.

Is it possible that you could amend your online flyer at KCA’s calendar, post a message to the message board, and possibly mail out notice to all schools who might attend? Seems there’s enough time to do that. Unless, of course, the trophies have already been ordered and engraved. I would amend the sections to read “1st and under”, which would qualify pre-Ks.

Also, you should probably get Steve’s opinion on this. And you need to do it quickly enough to get notice out.

If you decide to vary from what you did last year, your only defense will be that you’ve learned from your past experiences and try to mitigate the percieved damages to last year’s player.

I really think Steve can sort this out amicably.

Good luck, and I hope to see positive results for you and my Ky friends.

13

When having a scholastic player at this young age, its’ not the idea of the scholastic player to be in the tournament – its’ the parents demanding to have their child in the event. If a organizer, or the winds of change to have trophies with name plates with being younger then kidergarden. Then we are doing greater harm then good.

If it becomes a norm to have trophies for younger and younger players, there will be parents starting their children at these younger ages. Having a trophy for a pre-kidergarden, would only effect a large scholastic tournament with less then one percent. Parents will see the trophy (pre-kidergarden), then start their younger child at a younger age – just going trophy hunting. Then in time parents would be talking why a 4 year old plays better then a 2 year old. Would we then need a scholastic pre-kidergarden trophy, with a scholastic infant trophy as well. If the organizers of the Supernationals III advertise a 6 foot trophy, for the youngest player, someone would register a new born.

Its’ nice to start scholastic players at a young age, it does more harm to have them start tournaments at a very young age. If organizers start to have trophy titles for younger ages, parents will go trophy hunting and the players themselves would lose out. If we start them younger for trophies with younger ages, would we need rules of what a director needs to do when a players diapers needs to be changed.

14

We have around 25 active players who are age 4 or younger, another 333 who are 5 years old and 1414 who are 6.

Depending on the state, the school district and parental choice options, kids can be as old as 6 when they first enter kindergarten, in some cases nearly 7.

I have had players as young as 4 in my tournaments. Some were mature enough for competitive chess, others weren’t. (That statement is probably true at any age level, including adult.)

15

This is one of those agonizing situations where the person who designed the tournament overlooked something, so now the TD is stuck between a rock and a hard place – following the TLA literally and ending up with an absurd result, or doing what he thinks is right and incurring the wrath of the chess lawyers.

I vote for the latter. Let the kid in – and fix the TLA next year.

Bill Smythe

16

Amen brothers Bill and Mike :slight_smile:

17

Its’ not so much the problem of having the pre-kidergarden play in the event. As there is now two pre-kidergarden players pre-registered for the event. Its’ not the cost of two trophies, as both trophies would cost less then twenty dollars for the set. If being the organizer of the event, would let the pre-kidergarden players have the right to win a K-1 trophy. As the event was not designed with a prize fund under the kidergarden level.

The first problem, since it would be a special prize after the announcement of the prize. The universal problem of any director, would be as a fair jurist. Do understand how (Terry and Bill) other directors would want to fix this problem. If as a society we can accept a special prize, in this one case, were do we draw the line. Will ask this question for Terry and Bill, if you came to my tournament: would you accept a special prize of a one year USCF membership, with the right to win the prize money?

If someone gets a special prize, win a special prize even if the person never wins or have a draw during the event. Having a special prize of a trophy for now these two pre-kidergarden players. They would win a trophy even before the day of the event, would win with any final score. The other players, would have to play in the event and have some risk to win a trophy. During the end of registration, could have the same amount of players with a equal amount of trophies – making the players have zero risk of having some type of trophy.

Second problem, as the records show there are only 358 scholastic players at the age of five years old or younger, there are only 25 scholastic players at the age of four years old or younger. Asking the state associations, when they have K-12 state championships. If they change the title of a scholastic trophy from K-1 to grade 1 to younger. Then they would have to change the title of the championship. Some states would start kidergarden at the age of five or six, even if the parent held there child back a year – as the organizer would place a five or six year old in the kidergarden level. Since there are only 25 active players at 4 years old or younger, making sure they would be way to young to be in school.

How can we tell the state associations, it would be a good idea to change the trophies, with that the title of their championship – from K-1 to 1 to younger. With 50 states, with only 25 active players under the age of being accpeted into kidergarden: would be a foolish change. What it could be with these pre-kidergarden players, they could be over the age of five. Just because the parents held their children back, or one state is different when they start children in kidergarden. Very sure these pre-kidergarden players are not 4 years old or younger.

If the pre-kidergarden players are five years old or older. Would use the evidence from other states, understanding the parents could have had their child start kidergarden at a older age. As the organizer could have someone in kidergarden, for the K-1 section because that scholastic players parent did start their child in kidergarden at a younger age. Even if the organizer does accept them in the K-1 section, the pre-kidergarden players could still be not the most youngest players in the tournament.

If they are five years old or older, and still pre-kidergarden. There are other five years old and in kidergarden. Would it be fair to have a five year old and 2 months, enrolled in kidergarden – forced to win a trophy; then have a five year old and 4 months, not enrolled in kidergarden – able to win a pre-kidergarden trophy just because the parents held the child back.

18

If you feel they should earn a prize, why not find the players ID numbers. Well Terry and Bill, get you’re credit cards out and give them a prize, a trophy would be as good as a three year USCF membership.

19

USCF’s Official National Scholastic Chess Tournament Regulations states the following: (Even if you are not running a National scholastic tournament, you can always quote the following ruling [as a guideline since you have none yet] when asked by parents.)

12.3.1 There shall only be one year of eligiblity per grade level, except for pre-schoolers who may play for more than one year as a Kindergartener or college or university students who may play for more than one year in the collegiate section as long as all requirements are met. (Another requirement is that a Kindegarten student should be under age 7.)

I don’t see any reason why a pre-K player can not play as a kindergarten in your tournament.

20

12.3 Age requirements: the following ages are as of September 1 of the school year in which the competition takes place:

Kindergarten: under age 7

12.3.1 There shall only be one year of eligiblity per grade level, except for pre-schoolers who may play for more than one year as a Kindergartener or college or university students who may play for more than one year in the collegiate section as long as all requirements are met.

uschess.org/scholastic/schol … ations.php

Would use the USCF National Scholastic Chess Tournament Regulations. Even if you do have pre-kindergarten players, they are pre-schoolers and have eligiblity as a kindergartener. They have no ethical grounds to earn a special trophy for a pre-kindergartener player. Since the director that started this question (mikekyamos), was asking for a national answer for a pre-kidergarten player.

If this regulation is good for the National Elementary (K-6) Chess Championship, National Middle School/Junior High (K-9) Chess Championship, National High School (K-12) Chess Championship, National Scholastic K-12/Collegiate Championships, National Youth Action Championship, U.S. Junior Chess Congress, U.S. Junior Open, and The Supernations III. Then it would be good for you’re tournament as well.

Have been told my answer is wrong. If I’m still once again wrong, then would be in the same company as the directors that have ran or will run these events. Would be in the same company that approved or on the USCF Executive Board, since these regulations were approved in 1984 and revised in 2003. My answer to mikekyamos, would not give a special trophy for only the pre-kidergarden players.