Problems with move counters (clock-punch counters)

Running Chess Tournaments
21

If rules were created to try and eliminate disputes about everything that arises at CCA events, the rulebook would be about 3x its current size, and a lot less useful to boot. (I understand that these disputes happen; my claim of contrivance was not properly targeted, and I retract it in this instance.)

If a player is too absorbed in the game to pay attention to the clock settings, whose fault is that? The clock is part of the game. Ensuring proper setting/adjustment is my responsibility, as a player or director.

We simply don’t agree here, Mr. Atkins. I can accept that if you can. In either case, this will be my final comment on the subject, as I don’t have anything new to say.

22

Actually, what happened was that White (who was present at the start of the round) pressed his side to start Black’s clock without making a move. When Black arrived, he immediately pressed the clock to start White’s clock. That credited him with one clock press, so after thirty-nine more presses, the clock (running in mode DL-C1) added the time for the next time control. That prematurely led Black to believe he had successfully met the time control. He had left the board for a much needed “break.” When the clock showed 59:59 remaining, White claimed that Black had overstepped the time limit. The NTD (and IA) ruling on the claim decided that White had won. The ruling was appealed, and the chief TD (also NTD/IA) upheld the floor TD’s ruling.

To this day, I regard this as a highly instructive example.

23

I sense this issue has caused a ruckus in the star chamber where the Inner Circle of elite TDs meet to decide the fate of the world.

Here’s the thing, Mr. Reed: Clock-press counters can cause problems even among players and TDs who have read the manual. The veteran players on the top board in the last round at USATE 2011 most likely read the manual and were confident in their ability to set and use a Chronos clock. Even with that, funny things can and do happen.

In this case, an NTD who has been lording over chess events in style since I was a wee lad (OK I was a lad) and you were a toddler bellowed “start those clocks,” the White player saw Black was not at the board, thus made his first move and started Black’s clock. That threw off the counter by one press—and that’s all it took for mayhem to ensue at time control, hours later. That game decided the title. (EDIT: I stand corrected on the specifics of this incident. See Ken Ballou’s post above. The scenario I wrongly outlined here could also cause problems.)

That or similar could happen to lots of conscientious players and TDs who have read the manual carefully. It could have happened to me for the first decade I owned and used a Chronos, when I set it with the move counter enabled, just…well, just because. I started to seriously question that based on an experience at a local club, in an event I directed. That was right before the 2011 USATE, for those who believe in Fate. We had a long discussion about move counters at the time; the thread is in the archives.

Yep, players and TDs should read the manual. Funny things still happen. The potential downside outweighs the upside. And then there is the notion that a clock should be just that—a clock—and not provide any more information than the time remaining.

It’s just not worth the potential for bad things and silliness.

24

I stand corrected on the specifics of the 2011 USATE incident, based on Ken B.'s account. That happens a lot, btw, and moreso with veteran players, who remember the old rule where White had the choice whether or not to make his first move before starting Black’s clock.

In fact, it happened in a match my team played in the 5th round that year: one round before the final round chaos. The player who started an analog clock without making a move as White was an expert and former (?) USCF employee who goes way way back in rated chess. If Harold Stenzel sees this, he might remember: He made the ruling on that one.

Ya see, it’s not just hustlers and rules lawyers and folks too lazy to read the manual…

25

As a director, I give instructions before the first round that the player whose clock is being used must:

  1. Know how to set his own clock.
  2. Demonstrate the use of the clock to his opponent, who may be unfamiliar with that clock. This includes showing how to pause the clock, how delay or increment is shown, that delay or increment is on.
  3. Set the timer without the move counter being on. The score sheet is the main evidence for a flag fall. ( I am not against move counters, but things happen and sometimes clocks add the extra hour before they should. This is why White’s time should be started first on most digital clocks)
  4. Turn off the sound. Having a clock beep after every move is more annoying than cell phones. Enable the properly designated delay or increment setting.
  5. If I feel that the player has deliberately failed to set delay on his clock and this is caught during the game, I add one minute for each move that had been played to the opponent’s time.

As a player, I usually ask my opponent how his clock works, unless I know that particular clock pretty well. The main question is if the player has set the delay. On several occasions, I found that the player had not set his clock with delay. Some players will try to sneak not setting delay on their clocks, if they can get away with it.

26

I will decline to take up discussion of the various issues in Mr. Mark’s two most recent posts. I refer to my previous posts in this thread; those comments still apply. (I will note that failure to keep up with rules changes, or a general failure to follow proper procedure, is not an argument I find convincing.)

As a reminder to all, my specific objection had, and has, absolutely nothing to do with the opinions of those who prefer not to use move counters. My specific objection is to any attempt to codify those opinions into a rule. As long as that bit of silliness is off the table, I am indifferent to the rest of the discussion.

27

People have attempted to use the Excalibur/Game-Timer with the move counter off and it either (a) still adds the time when the (hidden) move counter tells it to (normal settings) or (b) doesn’t add the time for the second control (user settings with number of moves set to zero).

That makes at least one clock incapable of going without a clock-punch counter.

28

I guess I just don’t see the problem with manually adding the time at forty moves. Some clocks, like the DGT 960, require that anyway.

Alex Relyea

29

The DGT 960 and the Precision (our club still has a few) are clocks that don’t handle multiple time controls well. Manually adding time to those, the Excalibur, analog clocks (for secondary time controls that are not an integer number of hours), etc. can be done but does require both players agreeing that the time control has been reached. If the clock counts down to zero (such as in a time scramble) then it may require a full reset to get it restarted.
You just have to balance the problems with a clock that reached zero before you added the second time control against a the problems with a clock that added the time early.

One problem I’ve seen with clocks that do not use a move counter is that one side gets its time added and then the person on the other side complains about the clock problem, with the result that sometimes that side gets the time added as well when the person handling the problem doesn’t realize how the clock setting will be working (with the result that the person with time still left from the first control potentially gets the second control added twice). Again, use versus non-use of a clock-punch counter both have issues that need to be balanced against each other.

30

.

This means is that the clock has two serious design flaws:

Digital chess clocks must not mistake their clock-punch counter for a move counter: it is not a move counter.

The time control used in a typical tournament game consists of a sequence of segments. For example, the time control “40moves/90minutes, SuddenDeath/60minutes” has two segments.
Digital chess clocks need to display two segment counters, one for each player. The segment counter for one player has no effect on the segment counter for the other player.

The individual player’s clock should suddenly add the time for the next segment --when but only when-- its time ticks all the way down to zero. The segment counter should not be affected by the clock-punch counter.

The clock must display the segment number that the player’s clock has reached.

I do not believe that most digital chess clocks do this today. When you peel the onion to its core, this combination of 1 & 2 is the only way that White can ascertain that Black has suffered flag fall, without requiring White to keep track of Black’s time over a span of moves. (Granted the tracking that White must do of Black’s time usage is truly minimal, but it is more than nothing, so a principle is kinda violated.)

I can detect the fall of my opponent’s flag only by…

(A) Seeing that his clock says segment #2 when my trusted score sheet says he has not completed enough moves to satisfy segment #1; or

(B) Seeing his clock hold still at a value of zero time remaining; which must mean the end of the final segment that is a sudden death style segment (no more segments to follow).

For any digital chess clock that ticks its time down to zero…

  • A clock that lets its clock-punch counter have any effect on any other display aspect is flawed.
  • A clock that does not display the current segment number, separately for each player, is flawed.
  • A clock that does not increment its segment counters in the correct circumstance (as described above), is flawed.

Analog dial clocks, with a big hand for the minute and a little hand for the hour, do implicitly display the current segment number, separately for each player. This is because they tick their time UP not DOWN. For example…

Suppose the two segment time control is “40moves/90minutes, SuddenDeath/60minutes”.
If the game started with both clocks set to 2:30, and now my opponent’s clock reads 4:01, I know his time control has advanced to its second segment. If my score sheet shows my opponent has made less than 40 moves I can declare him in flag fall.

A digital clock could also tick its time display UP I guess. Maybe some do?
.

31

By “segment counter” I assume you mean a display that says “1” during the first time control, “2” during the second, etc, or something similar.

The Chronos, in its non-move-counting modes, does exactly what you want – except that instead of displaying “1” or “2” it displays an extra hyphen, or a hyphen in a different location, to indicate the segment number. The segments are displayed independently for each player. If white’s first time segment runs out at move 57, and black’s at move 42, then for the intervening 15 moves the clock will show segment 1 for white, segment 2 for black. And each player’s second-segment time (e.g. 30 minutes) will be added when that player’s segment display switches from 1 to 2.

And yes, this is exactly what happens with the Chronos in its non-move-counting modes.

The Chronos has this option, too. (On my old model it’s called DL-UP.) In this mode you can still also set a delay, but not an increment.

Try the Chronos, you’ll like it!

Bill Smythe