Two club members were playing an 8-minute game. One player has a Rook and King with 4 minutes left on his clock; the opponent has a Bishop and Knight and King and has only a few seconds left. There is no forced mate on the board; no 3-time repetition of position needs to occur for the R/K player. The Bishop/Knight player would like to claim “no losing chances” as the R/K player cannot force mate.
Would a TD decide the game must play out with the player with only a few seconds losing; or declare the game a draw because he can see that no mate will occur?
If the game is played under Blitz rules, then Insufficient Losing Changes (ILC, or 14H) claims are not allowed. If the game is under Quick (sudden death) rules, then it’s allowed.
The TD has a few options, but the idea is that the TD does NOT account for the time on the clocks or the strength of the players.
ILC is a draw offer; I’ll assume the K+R player would decline that offer
Play it out; the K+B+N player loses
Add a delay clock and make them play it out; the likely question is how long of a delay is appropriate…IMO it’s 2 seconds, but some TDs would say 3…and some wouldn’t think about it at all and just slap 5 seconds on there
Call it a draw, based on whether a C player could hold the position against a Master; this would be my choice as a TD…IF the organizer had been (IMO) misguided enough to run a G/8 event under Quick rules with no delay
Final option is the TD could rule the claim incorrect and subtract some of* the claimant’s time
Ultimately it’s the TD’s choice. It really it comes down to 2-4…and for these forums there will be a heated debate over whether 3 or 4 is the best decision. Many TDs have made the choice ahead of time to go with a delay clock no matter what so that it’s always the players who decide the game. Then again the rules allow for it, and it doesn’t take a master to see that the game is clearly a draw.
Edited for accuracy. Was previously subtract “half” which is wrong.
I think it would have to be three seconds, which is the standard delay for quick chess, unless a different delay time had been agreed/posted/announced before the game started. The rulebook mentions a two second delay for blitz chess but (1) as you said, 14H draw claims aren’t allowed in blitz chess, and (2) the revised blitz rules no longer allow a time delay or increment to be used unless it was “stated in any advance publicity, announced and posted at the site”.
There is a discrepency in Rule 5F which was apparently overlooked when the rules were revised. This section of Rule 5F in the 5th edition rulebook is apparently still in effect:
This should have been changed to say that “For Quick Chess (G/5 to G/29) the standard delay is three seconds. The standard time control for Blitz Chess is G/5 with no delay.” to be consistent with the revisions to Rule 5C (Quick Chess) and Chapter 11 (Blitz Chess). Since the rule hasn’t been changed I suppose you could argue that a G/5 quick chess game should use a two second delay (although I think it should be three seconds, since it’s quick chess and not blitz), but Rule 5F doesn’t say anything about G/8.
I agree, assuming there was no forced mate.
I don’t think this is necessarily misguided. At the World Open G/10 tournament most players play G/10 with no delay. In previous years there’s been an option of playing G/8 with a three second delay. I’m not sure what the rules will be this year, with Rule 5Fa (deduction for time delay) being phased out.
It’s wrong because a player with K+B+N vs. K+R has a valid ILC claim at quick chess, but if the claim were invalid the penalty would be a deduction of up to one minute from the claimant’s time, at the director’s option. This wouldn’t necessarily be half the claimant’s time, although it could be.
I’m not sure how it can be “clearly wrong” if the facts make the claim incorrect. The claimant could’ve made the claim on the opponent’s time, which is an incorrect claim. If the claim is procedurally correct, on the K+B+N time, then I agree with your opinion that the TD denial is not the best decision.
I’ve corrected the time statement inaccuracy in my original post.
So the net result is that the rules don’t address the G/6 to G/9 gap in standard delay, which means no one is required to post announcements regarding a difference from the standard delay…there is no standard delay for G/6-G/9. In the case of G/8 ILC claim, the TD can add whatever delay he/she wishes without justification.
My opinion leans toward 2 seconds for anything less than G/15 and is based purely on the prevalence of G/3 Inc/2 international blitz time controls (OTB and internet).
Stated in the original post.
So…you would willingly run a G/8 d/0 event under Quick rules? I have no problems with a G/8 event under blitz rules…or G/8 with delay under Quick rules…but when you play G/8 with no delay under Quick rule then you’re begging for ILC claims. ILC is stupid enough as it is.
Is the World Open G/10 played under Blitz rules or Quick rules? Past events may have had the OPTION to play G/8 d/3, but that doesn’t mean that ILC claims were allowed for the G/10 d/0 folks. The 2010 World Open G/10 TLA doesn’t say whether it’s Quick or Blitz rules, only that it’s Quick-rated.
Already covered. Can’t be clearly wrong when we don’t know if the claim was procedurally correct.
O.K., I’ll concede that if the player with K+B+N made the ILC claim on the opponent’s time, or the claim was otherwise incorrectly made (e.g. the players were using a delay clock, or the claimant had more than two minutes left on the clock) then the claim should be denied, but I don’t think the TD should impose a time penalty. Strictly speaking you’re right that the claim would be “clearly incorrect” (14H2d) so the TD could theoretically impose a penalty of up to a minute.
You’ve overlooked 14H2b2 as an option. The director can watch the game while deciding.
Somebody just aimlessly shuffling his rook trying to get the flag would invite an upholding of the opponent’s 14H claim (or FIDE 10.2).
I disagree. Rule 5F says that the standard delay for Quick Chess is three seconds. Although Rule 5F inaccurately says that Quick Chess is from G/10 to G/29, I believe that three seconds is also the standard delay for G/5 to G/9 if played using Quick Chess rules. We may have to agree to disagree about this one.
At least for G/10 to G/14, and as I interpret Rule 5F for G/5 to G/9, this is non-standard and would have to be announced in advance.
But that’s blitz and it’s increment rather than delay, so I don’t know why you’d use that to justify using a two second delay for quick chess.
Personally I wouldn’t run a G/8 event, with or without delay. I use G/5 d0 for blitz. In the past all the Quick Chess games I’ve directed have been either G/10 d0 or G/8 d3 [i.e. G/10 with a two minute deduction under Rule 5Fa], at the players’ option. As I said, most players at the World Open have chosen G/10 d0. Presumably if it were G/8 instead of G/10 these same players would choose G/8 d0, but maybe some might choose G/8 d3 in preference to G/8 d0.
Quick.
They were as far as I was concerned, and I was the floor TD, or one of the floor TDs. I don’t see why they wouldn’t be under USCF Quick Chess rules.
In the original post it was stated that the player with K+B+N had only a few seconds left, so I don’t think 14H2b2 would work very well in this case. You’re right that it’s an option in general.