In a quick-rated G/10 event, Player A’s flag fell but Player B didn’t notice it at first. Player A completed move and pressed clock. Player B made an illegal move, pressed clock, and called “Time”. Player A pointed out the illegal move and wanted two minutes put back on his clock. Player B wanted to be ruled the winner by time forfeit. What is the proper ruling in this case? What is the specific rule from the rule book supporting this ruling? Would the ruling be different if Player A had called the illegal move before Player B called time? Thanks.
Since the last move played by B was an illegal move, the appropriate amount of time should be added back to the clock. If this would give A time on his clock, then he wouldn’t lose by time forfeit. I don’t have my rulebook here with me, but the important rule is the one dealing with illegal moves.
Let us look at some rules that are close to see if we can get a feel for what to do here:
19G3 says about adjourned games that if the opponent loses on time 9failure to appear) and the sealed move by the player that did show up is invalid, the loss on time stands.
Rule 13C13 says the player out of time cannot claim a win.
13C6 says the time forfeit claim is void if a claimant’s flag falls while making the claim.
So, in those cases (time forfeit) it appears that if the flag is down there is no claim that can be made by Player A.
13A2 covers the case where the flag is called before the opponent delivers mate (the flag fall is appropriate).
13C says the game is won by the player making a proper flag fall claim.
In this case the time forfeit claim was made first (before the illegal move) by B and should be dealt with first. I think the player whose flag is down (A) is just trying to get out of a legitimate loss. The flag is down; the opponent (B) has noticed it and made the claim first; the TD rules the game is over; nothing that happens after the game is over is of consequence (including B’s move). Nothing B did affected the fact that A’s flag fell first (before B’s illegal move). If B’s illegal move takes place before the flag fall, then it does affect A and his flag.
Tim
As I read the description of the situation, player B made the illegal move, punched his clock, then called the time forfeit on A. So Tim what do you think?
The flag is down in sudden death. The game is over. The illegal move would be relevant only if it had been made before the flag fell. I see the argument you are trying to make (the flag has not really fallen until the opponent calls it), but I don’t accept it here. Might be a different matter if there were a second time control and a scoresheet was required, but pretty much the whole point of sudden death is that the game cannot continue after the time has expired.
Would your ruling be the same if there wasn’t a witness to the fact that the flag fell first?
Probably not. If the player whose flag was down had claimed that the opponent made an illegal move, pressed the clock, and then his flag fell, then, in the absence of neutral witnesses, I would rule that the game must continue. However, my understanding of the case as stated was that the question was whether an illegal move made after the flag fell but before the opponent claimed it could be penalized. In my opinion, no.
Another way to put this is that a player cannot ask for redress under the rules for an infraction which took place after his flag had fallen, any more than he can win on time.
I realize it is hard to under time pressure but isn’t it the responsibilty of the player claiming the illegal move to point it out. Even to the point of stopping the clock and getting a TD if one isn’t watching. Even if the flag hasn’t fallen yet he still has that responsibilty. So he doesn’t and then his opponent notices the fallen flag and calls it thus ending the game.
It isn’t his fault that his opponent didn’t call the illegal move in time. The game is over. Chalk it up as a learning experience and be better prepared next time.
On a side note say the flag has fallen and it is a digital clock and is simply flashing 0s. With the old analog style clock you can simply push the hand back 2 minutes, which might or might not help (what if the flag had been down for 3 minutes?) But with the digital clock do you just give him two minutes because you are unable to determine how long the flag has been down? What if you as TD had been watching and were for some reason certain that the flag had been down 60 seconds? 3 minutes?
Just hope I never run into this.
I tend to agree with wzim. There is one special exception in the rules of chess (checkmate ends the game) but everything else seems to require the opponent to notice it. I don’t think that there’s special language for flag-falls, even in sudden death.
And yes it’s a mess if you don’t know how long ago the flag fell. The relevant rules section may need a rewrite to deal with this.
The flag is down, the game is over, unless, as rfeditor pointed out, an illegal move produced the fallen flag.
No. The player with the fallen flag has no claims other than ‘No mating material’.
Interesting that this question was posed, as I have been on player B’s side of the board numerous times in Blitz.
Agree with Tim and Terry:
13C. Time forfeit.
…
b. Sudden Death: The player who properly claims that the opponent has not completed the game in the allotted time, and has mating material (14E), wins the game. A scoresheet is not required to win on time in a sudden death time control (15C). See also 15H, Reporting of results; and 19G3, Loss on time and invalid move.
13C1. Only players may call flag. Only the players in a game may call attention to the fall of a flag (5G); it is considered to have fallen only when either player points this out. A director must never initiate a time-forfeit claim.
I see that the odds of winning this one are probably not very good for me. But being as stubborn as I am I will give it at least one more shot. I am somewhat motivated as this same scenario has been argued at the usenet group rec.games.chess.politics on more than one occasion. While the arguments have gone both ways there, some very senior level TD’s have argued that the time adjustment should be made before considering the time forfeit.
The game is alive up until the point that the flag has fallen, i.e. pointed out by either player. Various things can happen after the flag has ‘dropped’ but is not considered down. Stalemate, checkmate, draw by agreement, resignation can all occur after the flag is down but not called. The only specific exception is in the case of an ILC claim. There are various reasons to justify the distiction for an ILC claim, there are no reasons to have this exception apply to an illegal move.
In our current scenario, the flag has by definition not fallen until after the illegal move occured. Therefore, the illegal move should be resolved first, before considering the flag fall.
Ah, but in this case the flag fall claim came first.
Tim
Actually, in the original scenario, the flag fall claim came before the illegal move was called, but not before it was made:
So Grant may have a valid point here.
On the other hand, do we want to say that an illegal move, like a flag fall, is not deemed to have occurred until it is called? If so, then for sure the flag trumps the illegal move in this case.
On the third hand, there appears to be no rulebook parallel to:
– for illegal moves.
On the fourth hand, I am extremely uncomfortable assuming that 16E was intended to apply to all situations. I think it was designed for simple time-forfeit cases, especially in the first control of a multi-control tournament. For example, if a player’s flag falls at move 37, but is not pointed out until move 42 (in a 40-move control), the claim is disallowed.
There are cases (other than simple time forfeits) where it makes sense to apply 16E, and cases where it does not. Tim points out a few of each:
In other words, (a reasonable parallel of) 16E would not apply here.
In other words, here again 16E would not apply. If A’s flag falls, then B’s flag falls, then B calls A’s flag down, B still does not win, even though only A’s flag, not B’s, has been called.
Again no 16E. The claimant’s flag is regarded as down even though only the opponent’s flag has been called.
Here 16E does apply, i.e. the flag must be called before the mate is delivered, otherwise the mate stands.
A second yes vote for 16E.
I would feel more comfortable saying that 16E does not apply to the scenario which started this thread, i.e. that the flag trumps the illegal move. But I’m not absolutely convinced the rulebook supports this view (even though its author does!).
Bill Smythe