Rule 42D is very strong!

[Localtdforsythe]

42D. Delay clock preferable in sudden death. A properly set clock with time delay is preferable to any other clock in a game with any sudden death time control. Therefore, if White has such a clock available and Black does not, White’s clock should be used. The only occasion where Black retains the right to use his/her analog clock are in games with no sudden death time control, in cases where both players have the same type of clock, or if White is late and Black has already set up standard equipment. Black would also have a choice of equipment if the delay mode were not being used in a sudden death time control game. In any particular game, if the delay clock cannot be properly set, then the opponent of the player providing the delay clock may choose which legal clock is to be used (5F).

During the set of the round, White has a analog clock and Black has a delay clock: Black does not understand how to set the delay. Black just got the clock in the mail the other day, it would be the first time Black has used the clock in any game. Since Black has choice of equipment, White a analog player does not mind if the delay is set to off. Since the delay clock cannot be properly set, White choose to have Black clock at the board.

14H2a. The claim is unclear and a delay clock is available for the game. A director who believes the claim is neither clearly correct (14H2c) nor clearly incorrect (14H2d), but is instead uncertain as to the correctness of the claim, may place a delay clock on the game, setting it as follows: The claimant gets half of the claimant’s remaining time (rounded to the nearest second); the opponent’s time is unadjusted; the time delay is set for the standard delay announced at the start of the tournament. After the claimant’s clock is started, the 14H draw request by the claimant becomes a draw offer under 14B3, Draw offer before moving. Penalties for rule infractions remain standard. The claimant may win, lose, or draw the game.

After a few moves during the game, the director walks up to the board. White is on the move, when the director tells the players to stop the clock. The director ask why the clock does not have the delay on. The players tell the director Black does not understand how to set the delay. White did use rule 42D to accept the clock without delay.

In a different part of this forum, a director made a statement he would use rule 14H2a, to change the clock from non-delay off to delay on. It stated on the idea that the players do not understand how to set the delay clock, so they would need to use rule 42D. It ended up with the director in this forum over-turning the idea to place a delay clock on the board. Asking this director what rule he would use, the director has made the claim on rule 14H2a. Since this is the only part of the rules (14H) were a non-defective clock can be replaced with a non-defective clock.

If the director change the clock from non-delay to delay with rule 14H2a. Would not the director also open up the rights of the players to a draw claim? If I was White, and I made the statement White is on the move: would I now have the right to accept a draw? Since the director has made a 14H2a claim, does it not open up the rights to a draw? Since the director has made a claim of 14H, would have to say both players have the right. In this case the director made a claim, so White could accept a draw as the claim was made by the director. It would force Black into a draw, so the director in this forum must be in error.

If the director did use 14H2a, would not the director have to take half of the time from Blacks clock? Since the owner of the clock is Black, as I’m not sure as the claimant was the director not the players. If the director in this forum is correct, would have to remove half of the time from the clock. Since the claimant is the director, the director in this forum must be in error.

Since the game has started, the director does not have the right to over-turn rule 42D with 14H2a.

16O. Defective clocks. Every indication given by a clock is considered to be conclusive in the absence of evident defects. a player who wishes to claim any such defect must do so as soon as aware of it. A clock with an obvious defect should be replaced, and the time used by each player up to that time should be indicated on the new clock as accurately as possible.

The director should use judgment in determining what times shall be shown on the new clock. A director who decides to subtract time from one or both minutes to the time control or at least one minute for each move the player still needs to meet the time control.

If the players used rule 42D at the start of the game. The idea of the delay clock if set to delay off as a defective clock, is not a defective clock. The director would like to have the delay on from the start, the players were in agreement to use rule 42D. If the director was at the board at the start of the round, the director could have set the delay on. Player have used their clocks with the delay off; there is little evidence the clocks are defective. In rule 42D, if the delay cannot be used, White still has the choose to use the clock without delay. Rule 42D does not make a claim the delay clock with delay off is a defective clock. Since the game has started, the director does not have the right to over-turn rule 42D with 160.

16P. Erroneously set clocks. An erroneously set clock should be handled in the same fashion as a defective clock. As in 16O, the director should use judgment in deciding whether to make time adjustments. The most common situation of this type involves an analog clock set to expire at 7:00 rather than the correct 6:00. This is best handled by pointing out to both players that the time control expires at 7:00. Clocks can also be reset for the correct time controls and the correct elapsed time for each player.

Sometimes this hour difference is not pointed out and there is an eventual time claim. Even though the clock may show 6:00 with a flag down, or the signaling device on a delay or digital clock indicates a flag fall, if the total elapsed time shown for both players is about an hour more than possible, considering when the game started, the player should not be forfeited, and should be given the hour in question.

If the players used 42D before the start of the round, even rule 16P does not give any firm backing for a delay clock set to non-delay is a erroneously set clock. Out of the 3 examples the director can change the non-delay to delay on – this is the best case. Rule 16P has as the example how the analog clock can be set erroneously not the delay clock. If the director wants to use 16P to change the delay clock on from the delay clock off, would have mixed feelings but would accept the judgment.

Even under the 5th edition, there is little empirical evidence the director can change the delay clock from off to delay clock on. As the rule 42D is very clear on the rights of the players, if the players do not understand how to set the delay in the first place.

[Terry_Winchester]

Doug, If this relates to the previous thread, originally posted by Zug, why do you need to start a new thread?

Terry

[timjust]

@Localtdforsythe

42D. Delay clock preferable in sudden death. A properly set clock with time delay is preferable to any other clock in a game with any sudden death time control. Therefore, if White has such a clock available and Black does not, White’s clock should be used. The only occasion where Black retains the right to use his/her analog clock are in games with no sudden death time control, in cases where both players have the same type of clock, or if White is late and Black has already set up standard equipment. Black would also have a choice of equipment if the delay mode were not being used in a sudden death time control game. In any particular game, if the delay clock cannot be properly set, then the opponent of the player providing the delay clock may choose which legal clock is to be used (5F).

During the set of the round, White has a analog clock and Black has a delay clock: Black does not understand how to set the delay. Black just got the clock in the mail the other day, it would be the first time Black has used the clock in any game. Since Black has choice of equipment, White a analog player does not mind if the delay is set to off. Since the delay clock cannot be properly set, White choose to have Black clock at the board.

14H2a. The claim is unclear and a delay clock is available for the game. A director who believes the claim is neither clearly correct (14H2c) nor clearly incorrect (14H2d), but is instead uncertain as to the correctness of the claim, may place a delay clock on the game, setting it as follows: The claimant gets half of the claimant’s remaining time (rounded to the nearest second); the opponent’s time is unadjusted; the time delay is set for the standard delay announced at the start of the tournament. After the claimant’s clock is started, the 14H draw request by the claimant becomes a draw offer under 14B3, Draw offer before moving. Penalties for rule infractions remain standard. The claimant may win, lose, or draw the game.

After a few moves during the game, the director walks up to the board. White is on the move, when the director tells the players to stop the clock. The director ask why the clock does not have the delay on. The players tell the director Black does not understand how to set the delay. White did use rule 42D to accept the clock without delay.

In a different part of this forum, a director made a statement he would use rule 14H2a, to change the clock from non-delay off to delay on. It stated on the idea that the players do not understand how to set the delay clock, so they would need to use rule 42D. It ended up with the director in this forum over-turning the idea to place a delay clock on the board. Asking this director what rule he would use, the director has made the claim on rule 14H2a. Since this is the only part of the rules (14H) were a non-defective clock can be replaced with a non-defective clock.

If the director change the clock from non-delay to delay with rule 14H2a. Would not the director also open up the rights of the players to a draw claim? If I was White, and I made the statement White is on the move: would I now have the right to accept a draw? Since the director has made a 14H2a claim, does it not open up the rights to a draw? Since the director has made a claim of 14H, would have to say both players have the right. In this case the director made a claim, so White could accept a draw as the claim was made by the director. It would force Black into a draw, so the director in this forum must be in error.

If the director did use 14H2a, would not the director have to take half of the time from Blacks clock? Since the owner of the clock is Black, as I’m not sure as the claimant was the director not the players. If the director in this forum is correct, would have to remove half of the time from the clock. Since the claimant is the director, the director in this forum must be in error.

Since the game has started, the director does not have the right to over-turn rule 42D with 14H2a.

16O. Defective clocks. Every indication given by a clock is considered to be conclusive in the absence of evident defects. a player who wishes to claim any such defect must do so as soon as aware of it. A clock with an obvious defect should be replaced, and the time used by each player up to that time should be indicated on the new clock as accurately as possible.

The director should use judgment in determining what times shall be shown on the new clock. A director who decides to subtract time from one or both minutes to the time control or at least one minute for each move the player still needs to meet the time control.

If the players used rule 42D at the start of the game. The idea of the delay clock if set to delay off as a defective clock, is not a defective clock. The director would like to have the delay on from the start, the players were in agreement to use rule 42D. If the director was at the board at the start of the round, the director could have set the delay on. Player have used their clocks with the delay off; there is little evidence the clocks are defective. In rule 42D, if the delay cannot be used, White still has the choose to use the clock without delay. Rule 42D does not make a claim the delay clock with delay off is a defective clock. Since the game has started, the director does not have the right to over-turn rule 42D with 160.

16P. Erroneously set clocks. An erroneously set clock should be handled in the same fashion as a defective clock. As in 16O, the director should use judgment in deciding whether to make time adjustments. The most common situation of this type involves an analog clock set to expire at 7:00 rather than the correct 6:00. This is best handled by pointing out to both players that the time control expires at 7:00. Clocks can also be reset for the correct time controls and the correct elapsed time for each player.

Sometimes this hour difference is not pointed out and there is an eventual time claim. Even though the clock may show 6:00 with a flag down, or the signaling device on a delay or digital clock indicates a flag fall, if the total elapsed time shown for both players is about an hour more than possible, considering when the game started, the player should not be forfeited, and should be given the hour in question.

If the players used 42D before the start of the round, even rule 16P does not give any firm backing for a delay clock set to non-delay is a erroneously set clock. Out of the 3 examples the director can change the non-delay to delay on – this is the best case. Rule 16P has as the example how the analog clock can be set erroneously not the delay clock. If the director wants to use 16P to change the delay clock on from the delay clock off, would have mixed feelings but would accept the judgment.

Even under the 5th edition, there is little empirical evidence the director can change the delay clock from off to delay clock on. As the rule 42D is very clear on the rights of the players, if the players do not understand how to set the delay in the first place.

Doug,

HUH???

Tim

[Localtdforsythe]

@Terry Winchester

Doug, If this relates to the previous thread, originally posted by Zug, why do you need to start a new thread?

Terry:

Well Nolan thinks every time I talk I’m hijacking the thread! Since it is in this tread, its not hijacking.

[rfeditor]

1. A digital clock not set for time delay is neither “defective” not “improperly set.” Therefore such a clock cannot be reset or swapped out after the start of the game except for a 14H claim, or possibly by mutual agreement of the players.

2. 14H2a is headed “The claim is unclear and a delay clock is available for the game.” It proceeds to state that the director “… may place a delay clock on the game.” You don’t have to use this if you don’t like it, but it is in the rules.

42D and 14H2a simply do not overlap. They cover different parts of the game.

[Localtdforsythe]

@rfeditor

2. 14H2a is headed “The claim is unclear and a delay clock is available for the game.” It proceeds to state that the director “… may place a delay clock on the game.” You don’t have to use this if you don’t like it, but it is in the rules.

If the director does use 14H2a to change the non-delay clock for a delay clock. Would it not open up the claim of 14H2a … After the claimant’s clock is started, the 14H draw request by the claiment becomes a draw offer … Would not the player have the right at that time to declare the game a draw, as the director has used a 14H2a claim? If the director enforce rule 14H2a, it is standard to give the claimant half of the claimant’s remaining time. If the director just use 14H2a, and does not change the time on the clock – would not the director not be enforcing the rule in the first place?

If the director on his own free will use 14H2a, will demand the game be a draw: position on the board does not matter or the difference in rating. As the director on his own free will opened up the 14H draw claim is first a draw offer. If you say the director can do this and it is the rules, then the draw claim is first a draw offer is also the rule. Will ask and demand a draw on the board, as the director on his own free will has opened up the claim.

42D and 14H2a simply do not overlap. They cover different parts of the game.

If the players use rule 42D in the first place, the director would have to find a very narrow view of the rule 14H2a. As you have posted, the claim is unclear with the director to use 14H2a. The rule 14H2a rule should only be used if the player on the move with two minutes or less of remaining time may stop the clock. Do not see in any of the 14H rule, the director has the right to make a claim during any stage of the game.

[rfeditor]

@Localtdforsythe

@rfeditor

2. 14H2a is headed “The claim is unclear and a delay clock is available for the game.” It proceeds to state that the director “… may place a delay clock on the game.” You don’t have to use this if you don’t like it, but it is in the rules.

If the director does use 14H2a to change the non-delay clock for a delay clock. Would it not open up the claim of 14H2a … After the claimant’s clock is started, the 14H draw request by the claiment becomes a draw offer … Would not the player have the right at that time to declare the game a draw, as the director has used a 14H2a claim? If the director enforce rule 14H2a, it is standard to give the claimant half of the claimant’s remaining time. If the director just use 14H2a, and does not change the time on the clock – would not the director not be enforcing the rule in the first place?

Yes. That is explcitly stated in the rule.

If the director on his own free will use 14H2a, will demand the game be a draw: position on the board does not matter or the difference in rating. As the director on his own free will opened up the 14H draw claim is first a draw offer. If you say the director can do this and it is the rules, then the draw claim is first a draw offer is also the rule. Will ask and demand a draw on the board, as the director on his own free will has opened up the claim.

The director can never invoke 14H “on his own free will.” It arises only upon a claim by one of the players. I say again, this is the only condition under which a time delay clock may be inserted in a game which did not start with one.

42D and 14H2a simply do not overlap. They cover different parts of the game.

If the players use rule 42D in the first place, the director would have to find a very narrow view of the rule 14H2a. As you have posted, the claim is unclear with the director to use 14H2a. The rule 14H2a rule should only be used if the player on the move with two minutes or less of remaining time may stop the clock. Do not see in any of the 14H rule, the director has the right to make a claim during any stage of the game.

I still don’t see the relevance of 42D. If one player has a time-delay clcok and wants to use it, he gets to do so. If neither player has a time-delay clock, or if the players agree to use something else, the game goes to a conclusion using the clock they started with, unless the there is a 14H claim and the TD uses 14h2a. If you are arguing that the TD can use 42D to substitute a time-delay after the game has started, you’re simply wrong.

[nolan]

This thread is pointless.