Strange tournament dispute (both players claiming a win)

Running Chess Tournaments
41

Yes, I guess I would make that assumption. Nevertheless, I would have grabbed the TD by the throat before stopping the clocks and posting any result. White’s clock was still running. There was no reason for Black to stop the clock. He could have simply went to the TD and asked for redress.

I do agree, tho, that my original thought of forfeiting Black may be too harsh. But what do we do? He does deserve some penalty. Or, maybe just a warning - I don’t know. Clearly, I see White’s actions more harmful to the situation than Black’s. I think you’re right, Bill. No penalty for Black, but a strong warning nevertheless. Give Black the win, fine White.

Douglas, if you can’t find anything good to say, why bother posting? I’ve never been to one of Bill’s tournaments, nor have I ever met him, but he has never said anything out of the way to you or anyone else here. He also happens to be correct on most of his points, he’s an experienced Senior TD, and his opinions are valuable. I’d gladly have him direct any tournament for me. Why do you wish to needle people?

Terry

OK, Bill, there’s my plug for you - back to the fight!! :slight_smile:

42

I think my reaction would be to find a TD and ask, “Hey, where’d my opponent go?”

Maybe he told the TD he was resigning.

Maybe he left to get something out of his car. (If he had a coat, the presumption is that the weather might make him to want to wear it.)

Depending upon the tournament site, I might not want to leave my stuff sitting at the table, especially if my opponent wasn’t present either.

If he DID leave, maybe the TD should know about it in case there’s a possibility he isn’t planning on coming back for the next round, especially someone rude enough to leave without notifying either a TD or his opponent that he was resigning the game.

Sorry, but I don’t think Black should get off without at least a warning, or maybe more.

Depending upon the event and the players, a forfeit Loss/Draw (as far as the event standings) but a ratable win (for Black) might be a reasonable option, even though I dislike that kind of result because there’s no easy way to show all of that on the crosstable or on MSA.

That being said, I wasn’t there, and even the additional details aren’t the same as being there.

David Kuhn’s advice is best. Make your ruling based on what you know at the time, then stick with it, advising the players on their right to appeal, of course.

This is a good place to discuss it, but it is unlikely the exact situation will recur. Some TDs will be more tolerant of Black’s behavior than I probably would be. White’s subsequent actions don’t improve his case, he’d be close to getting kicked out of the event with some TDs.

BTW, it’s been many years since I played in a Bill Smythe-directed event (I think the last one was at the Norris Center in about 1976), but I’d play in one of his events if the opportunity arose.

43

I would love to go to one of Bills events. Bill is a much better director that I can ever be. Heck, one time I was going to give Bill a one year USCF membership, till I fould out he was a life member. Thought of it as a nice little joke, for him thinking how he get an extra years membership. When I said punnishment, Bill will keep them inline. Hmmm, wounder if I have time to go to one of his events.

44

Let’s think for a moment about the infraction and why it is that you might want to penalize someone. Usually you penalize someone for cheating or doing something to take undo advantage of the opponent, and you want to “encourage” them to not do it again.

When Black stopped WHITE’s clock from running (and put it away), this could almost never hurt White, but can only hurt Black. And now because of this action you feel that Black should be forfeited!

I find it very rare in tournaments that players actually say the words, “I resign”, or that they tip over the King. Most games end with one player extending his hand and stopping the clock, with an implied understanding that they are resigning, even though the rulebook is clear those actions are NOT a resignation (see Rule 13B). It is only Chess lawyers and TDs that ask them, “Are you resigning?”, only to be given a very quizical look by the opponent and the words, “Isn’t it obvious?”.

Now, let’s suppose that the White player had extended his hand, and White stopped the clocks but did not say, “I resign”. Let’s say that Black then put the clock and pieces away. Would you then forfeit Black because White did not say, “I resign”?

I think the TD in this case made a good ruling.

Kind Regards,
Tom Ewers

45

Yes – I could pair them against each other in the first round of a Plus-Score, even though they’re both in the top half by rating.

No, wait – I could pair them against each other in EVERY round. :smiling_imp: Heh heh.

Bill Smythe

46

I’m very sure I can get a table and two chairs in the mens bathroom. :smiling_imp: Im very sure there is no rule you cannot have a rated game in the bathroom. :smiling_imp:

47

That’s an important (though maybe not the main) reason black should notify the TD instead of assuming white has abandoned the game. The TD will then know about the situation, and can consider the possibility of ejecting white from future rounds of the tournament for bad sportsmanship.

A warning would be appropriate – especially one which includes an explanation of the correct procedure, so that black will know better in the future.

As for “more”, an appropriate “more” might be to make black sit at his table for 15 minutes, with white’s clock running, before the TD awards the win to black. If white returns and makes a move during this interval, then the game continues (and black, a rook up, wins quickly).

Bill Smythe

48

How can anyone (white) down a whole Rook have the blind faith he won a game?

49

I once had an opponent offer a draw before making his move. I told him to make his move and I would then consider the draw offer. Instead, he resigned the game, though he was up material at the time.

The moral here is DO NOT ASSUME. That’s what both players did, but should not have.

50

Actually, in the scene described, it was black (up a rook) who thought he had won, and white (down a rook) who, very likely, was trying to pull something or other.

Bill Smythe

51

He was probably in zugzwang, and hoping that you (down material) wouldn’t notice.

When you forced him to move, he realized he could no longer hide his predicament.

Bill Smythe

52

Billie it looks like you and Dougie are in agreement for the first time!