rule oddity

[ben2600]

I was thinking of an odd situation a few weeks ago. It seemed to me that I knew the proper answers to the questions, but it seemed somewhat contradictory, and perhaps nonsensical. Here are four different situations, and if you agree with the “rulings” of A, B, and C, then D will seem sort of odd.

(A) Two players are on move 37, for example. Both have exact, correct scores. They are playing 40/2, SD/1. Both players now notice that BOTH flags are down. What is the “ruling?” Well, the game simply continues.

(B) Same type of situation, except both sides have played 39 moves each, and, let’s say, they both have 20 seconds left to make move 40. White makes move 40, with, let’s say, 10 seconds remaining. Now he gets up and goes for a walk, or to the bathroom, or whatever. He comes back, and sees black has made his 40th move, and notices black’s flag is down. White claims a win on time. Since white did make the time control, and black did not make move 40 with time remaining, white wins. All NTDs, ANTD’s and STD’s I asked agreed.

(C) Both sides have made 39 moves (same as B). BUT, white’s flag falls as he makes move 40. Black does not notice, and thinks, and his flag falls, and he makes his 40th move. Now, white is on his second time control, and sees black’s flag down. He claims a win on time. He wins. Again, TDs I asked all agreed.

(D) Both sides have made 39 moves, and BOTH flags are down. Neither player notices (Or, they both notice, and neither says anything, cause saying anything will not result in anyone winning, so why say anything?). Now white makes move 40. If now, either player says both flags are down, then the game simply continues…BUT, if black makes his 40th move, NOW, white can claim a win on time, as he is on time control 2, and black did not make 40 moves with time remaining. All TDs I asked agreed. This means, that by NOT moving, black will not lose on time, BUT, by making a move, his opponent can now claim a time forfeit! Weird.

So…if anyone agrees with all the above, then, what is the PROPER procedure for black? Should he let the TD know, before he makes move 40 “Hey both flags are down. I am not claiming a win, just wanted to let you know, so I do not lose by making my fortieth move!”

Again, I thought all of the above was true (per the rules) and I am a Senior TD. I asked several other TDs, and they agreed. Sounds weird to me. By making a move, black can lose on time, but by not moving, he cannot?

Comments?

Ben Finegold

[rfeditor]

@ben2600

I was thinking of an odd situation a few weeks ago. It seemed to me that I knew the proper answers to the questions, but it seemed somewhat contradictory, and perhaps nonsensical. Here are four different situations, and if you agree with the “rulings” of A, B, and C, then D will seem sort of odd.

(A) Two players are on move 37, for example. Both have exact, correct scores. They are playing 40/2, SD/1. Both players now notice that BOTH flags are down. What is the “ruling?” Well, the game simply continues.

(B) Same type of situation, except both sides have played 39 moves each, and, let’s say, they both have 20 seconds left to make move 40. White makes move 40, with, let’s say, 10 seconds remaining. Now he gets up and goes for a walk, or to the bathroom, or whatever. He comes back, and sees black has made his 40th move, and notices black’s flag is down. White claims a win on time. Since white did make the time control, and black did not make move 40 with time remaining, white wins. All NTDs, ANTD’s and STD’s I asked agreed.

(C) Both sides have made 39 moves (same as B). BUT, white’s flag falls as he makes move 40. Black does not notice, and thinks, and his flag falls, and he makes his 40th move. Now, white is on his second time control, and sees black’s flag down. He claims a win on time. He wins. Again, TDs I asked all agreed.

(D) Both sides have made 39 moves, and BOTH flags are down. Neither player notices (Or, they both notice, and neither says anything, cause saying anything will not result in anyone winning, so why say anything?). Now white makes move 40. If now, either player says both flags are down, then the game simply continues…BUT, if black makes his 40th move, NOW, white can claim a win on time, as he is on time control 2, and black did not make 40 moves with time remaining. All TDs I asked agreed. This means, that by NOT moving, black will not lose on time, BUT, by making a move, his opponent can now claim a time forfeit! Weird.

So…if anyone agrees with all the above, then, what is the PROPER procedure for black? Should he let the TD know, before he makes move 40 “Hey both flags are down. I am not claiming a win, just wanted to let you know, so I do not lose by making my fortieth move!”

Again, I thought all of the above was true (per the rules) and I am a Senior TD. I asked several other TDs, and they agreed. Sounds weird to me. By making a move, black can lose on time, but by not moving, he cannot?

Comments?

Ben Finegold

I don’t agree with “C”, which makes “D” kind of pointless. You can’t claim a win on time with your own flag down. This is covered in 13C6 and 16T. There is a minor exception in 13C6, where White properly makes a claim but his flag falls before he can stop the clock, but it is explicitly stated that such a claim must be rejected unless observed by the TD or an independent witness.

[sloan]

@ben2600

I was thinking of an odd situation a few weeks ago. It seemed to me that I knew the proper answers to the questions, but it seemed somewhat contradictory, and perhaps nonsensical. Here are four different situations, and if you agree with the “rulings” of A, B, and C, then D will seem sort of odd.

(A) Two players are on move 37, for example. Both have exact, correct scores. They are playing 40/2, SD/1. Both players now notice that BOTH flags are down. What is the “ruling?” Well, the game simply continues.

(B) Same type of situation, except both sides have played 39 moves each, and, let’s say, they both have 20 seconds left to make move 40. White makes move 40, with, let’s say, 10 seconds remaining. Now he gets up and goes for a walk, or to the bathroom, or whatever. He comes back, and sees black has made his 40th move, and notices black’s flag is down. White claims a win on time. Since white did make the time control, and black did not make move 40 with time remaining, white wins. All NTDs, ANTD’s and STD’s I asked agreed.

(C) Both sides have made 39 moves (same as B). BUT, white’s flag falls as he makes move 40. Black does not notice, and thinks, and his flag falls, and he makes his 40th move. Now, white is on his second time control, and sees black’s flag down. He claims a win on time. He wins. Again, TDs I asked all agreed.

(D) Both sides have made 39 moves, and BOTH flags are down. Neither player notices (Or, they both notice, and neither says anything, cause saying anything will not result in anyone winning, so why say anything?). Now white makes move 40. If now, either player says both flags are down, then the game simply continues…BUT, if black makes his 40th move, NOW, white can claim a win on time, as he is on time control 2, and black did not make 40 moves with time remaining. All TDs I asked agreed. This means, that by NOT moving, black will not lose on time, BUT, by making a move, his opponent can now claim a time forfeit! Weird.

I think you go wrong here (and earlier on C). White may be “on time control 2”, but he is in the same situation that Black was in your earlier case. The clocks clearly indicate that White did NOT make 40 moves in the first time control. Thus, Black cannot flag either.

[jwiewel]

It looks like the issue is proving, after the fact, whether B or C occurred. With C, white cannot claim a win on time because white also flagged in the first time control. With B, white made the first time control and thus can claim.

The “fun” comes in when white says that B occurred and his flag fell during move 41 (a valid win on time) while black claims that C occurred and white flagged during move 40 (not a valid win on time). This is one reason why TDs are generally actively checking clocks near the end of the time control (so that they can see which of the two cases it is if there is a dispute). TDs should be careful about their actions when watching the games (and clocks) as doing something like abruptly leaving is a big red flag that either a person flagged or the time control has been reached.

[Smythe_Dakota]

This particular “fun” can be avoided by player A if he plays his cards right. If both players are short of time, and player A makes his 40th move with a few seconds to spare, it would behoove player A to keep a close, continuous watch on the clock while player B is considering his move. As soon as player B’s time runs out, player A should stop (neutralize) the clocks to preserve the evidence. If he waits until player B moves and presses the clock, he risks the expiration of his own time, which would invalidate the claim.

If player A waits too long, and makes his claim only after both clocks have run out, even if a TD is watching and knows that player A still had time left after move 40, the TD would still be correct (I believe) in ruling that the claim is invalid and the game must continue.

Requiring that the claimant must still have time remaining when he makes his claim makes it unnecessary, at least in theory, to have a TD present during a time scramble. But, if I am the TD, I still prefer to be present in such situations.

Bill Smythe

[Steve_Immitt]

@Smythe Dakota

If player A waits too long, and makes his claim only after both clocks have run out, even if a TD is watching and knows that player A still had time left after move 40, the TD would still be correct (I believe) in ruling that the claim is invalid and the game must continue.

13C6. Claimant’s Clock.
“If a player who claims a time forfeit states the claim with claimant’s flag still up, but then fails to stop the clock in time to avoid also exceeding the time limit, the claim will be void, unless the flag fall was observed by a director or independent witness.
TD Tip: A director who is aware that a claimant has neglected to stop the clock should instruct the claimant to do so.”

CCA Rule 13, posted at the CCA events, states “You must stop both clocks with flag still up to win on time,” however.