This weekends SwissZILLA will be the first tournament that I’ll direct that has a guaranteed prize. One of my advanced entrants asked me a question today that I wanted to verify with you. If there are 40 players (half of b/80), am I then to pay out at least:
a) $1000, because that’s half of $2000 b/80?, or
b) $1200 because of the guaranteed $400 1st prize + half of the X, A, B, C, D, U1200 + unr prizes (400+120+120+120+120+120+120+80=1200)?
I’m thinking that it’s b), but $200 is significant, so I need some advice. Here is the tla:
Mar. 4-5 2006 SwissZILLA!
6SS, G/75; Hampton Inn Westport, 2454 Old Dorsett Rd, Maryland Hgts, MO 63043. Cont. breakfast (for overnighters), gym, free pkng, wrls net, pool. $$G $400 1st; $2000 b/80: 1st X, A, B, C, D, U1200, $240 each and 1st unr $160. EF: $40 until 3-1, $45 at site; Site entries cash only. Reg: 8:30-9:45; Rds: Sat 10, 1, 3:30, 6:30, Sun 12:30, 3; USCF; Bye any round - rounds 4-6 must commit before round 3; HR: $74; 314-298-7878; Reserve by 2-4 or rate may increase; AL_Howlett@charter.net; 314-497-4971: 4623 Robbins Grove Dr. Florissant, MO 63034; NS, NC.
[size=75](And it doesn’t matter if you have 10 or 40; you still pay $1200)[/size]
I conditionally agree with you in that if 10 players show up, then $1200 must be paid out anyway. If 8 of the 10 are in different prize sections, then I agree. If they are not, then I disagree. For example:
If 5 of the 10 players are unr, they would each be playing for $80. If the other 5 players were all masters, they would only be eligible to play for the $400 1st place prize. So now 480+80 = 560.
If this is not correct, please guide me to where in the rule book it states otherwise, and I’ll be more than happy to humbly recant. Thanks.
I didn’t think about the issues of not having players in each category.
I guess that the correct answer is: It doesn’t matter how much you pay out, someone will come up with an interpretation that supports a higher pay-out!
As I said in my e-mail, based on prizes gets tricky. It gets even trickier of some of the prizes are also guaranteed, and trickier still if you have some categories in which you get no entries.
I believe that in that case you redo the whole prize fund, ignoring the categories where nobody showed up.
So, you’re out a minimum of $400 for 1st place even if only ONE player shows up, plus at least half of whatever class prize he would be eligible for.
If that player is also unrated, he gets $480 ($400 plus half of the unrated prize).
If the turnout consists of 80 unrated players, now you have to pay the $400 plus 100% of the unrated prize or a total of $560, but you still don’t have any other classes with entrants, so those are ignored.
I’d have to see exactly how the tournament was advertised, but this doesn’t sound right. One player, one prize. If only one player showed up, he would get the $400 first prize. If a second player entered (who was eligible for a class prize), he would receive 50% of the advertised class prize.
OK, so if a total of two players, both unrated, show up, the total payout is $480.
I’ll defer to your expertise here, John, I haven’t run a tournament that had cash prizes in it for many years.
If an unrated player and an expert show up, and they tie for first place, how would you distribute the prizes? (Does it make a difference if they don’t tie for first place?)
Thanks for your input. My understanding is also that at most, one player can win one prize. Is “redoing the whole prize fund, ignoring the categories where nobody shows up” a uscf rule or personal preference? If no class X, A, B, C, D, or U1200 players show up, I must still pay those prizes although no players in those categories supported the tournament? I’d already be $80 in the hole (from entry fee’s alone) paying out the 1st place and unr prize (in the scenario above), but I’d have to pay an additional $720 as well? Is this official uscf policy? My actual tla is pasted in the first message of this thread by the way (rfeditor). It’s critical that I correctly understand what is written uscf policy and what is TD preference.
I’m thinking that if 1 unr and 1 expert show up, they would split $480 and get $240 each. After there $45 entry fees, I’d be out $390 before other expenses. The worst situation for me (that I can see) is the following:
1 Master
1 Expert
1 A
1 B
1 C
1 D
1 U1200
1 unr
In this case, I understand having to pay out $1200 and is they all entered in advance, that would only be $320 in entry fee’s; A loss of $880 before other expenses (OUCH). I know this is unlikely, but I always look at best and worst case scenarios when planning a tournament.
This gets a little tricky, since there are sometimes extra restrictions on unrateds.
If the unrated and Expert prizes are the same, there is no problem – they split first and (something) equally.
If the Expert larger than the unrated prize, and there are no other Experts, I would divide 1st and X equally between them. (The X has no complaint, since he’s getting more than half of first, and there’s no one else to argue.) If there were another X – well, I’d probably do it the same way, but I’d want to think about it for a while. There’s certainly an argument on the other side.
I don’t quite understand the parenthetical. If you mean “Only two players show up, one X and one unrated, and they do not tie for first” (presumably after a match), I don’t see the problem. One of them gets first, the other gets either X or Unr. If you mean “An X and an unrated tie for something other than first,” that’s too broad a hypothetical.
Uh, wouldn’t that depend on the tournament results? Since the event was advertised as a 6-round Swiss, with two players it would become a 6-game match.
If you have one master and one unrated, then:
Case 1. The master wins the 6-game match. Then he gets the guaranteed $400 first prize, and the unrated gets the (reduced) $80 unrated prize.
Case 2. The master and unrated draw the 6-game match. Here the place prize(s) and class prize(s) are combined and split (even though only one of the players in the tie would have been eligible for the class prize, had there not been a tie). The combined $480 is split two ways, so each player gets $240.
Case 3. The unrated wins the 6-game match. Then the unrated gets the guaranteed $400 first prize, and the $80 prize is not paid, because no player is eligible for it (limit one prize per player).
Thanks for your input. I agree with cases 1 and 2. In case 3, I would pay the unrated player $80 because they did technically have the most points in the unrated section. (warranting that they be compensated 1/2 the advertised b/80 prize.) I may be missing something here, and if so please accept my humblest apologies and help me in my ignorance.
You wouldn’t have to. The organizer is not required to pay out (or re-distribute) a prize if no player is eligible for it. (32C3)
If, in your generosity, you decide to violate the “one prize per player” limit, in this case nobody would object, since it’s not happening at the expense of any other player.
Thanks for the explanation. Would 32C3 apply in the case where I advertised “$$G $400 1st; $2000 b/80: 1st X, A, B, C, D, U1200, $240 each and 1st unr $160”?. I’m thinking that if only one unr player participates, then they automatically win at least $80. Is this not the case then?
If there is at least one person eligible for a prize and that person does not win a bigger prize, then you must pay at least half of that prize to that person under the based on rules. (If the prize is guaranteed, you must pay 100% of it, of course.)
So, if there is one unrated player and he loses all his games, he still gets $80.
But if he wins all his games and is clear first, then he gets the first place prize, not the unrated prize. In that case, since there is nobody else eligible for the unrated prize, you don’t have to pay it to anyone and are under no obligation to add that prize money to any of the other prize categories.
An organizer can always choose to pay out MORE than the minimum required amounts, of course. I’ve never heard players complain about that!
There is another proviso, too – the lone player must complete his schedule. If he drops out without finishing the tournament, you do not have to pay him his prize. (32C2 and 32C3)
I have one slight quibble (VERY slight) with your TLA wording. The $2000 followed by the colon might make it look as though the prizes listed after the “$2000” should add up to $2000, when in fact they add up to $1600. (The $400, listed before the “$2000”, is included in the $2000.) Maybe slightly better would be something like “$$2000 b/80: 1st $400 (guaranteed); X, A, B, C, D, U1200 each $240; unr $160”.
