Chess clock-hours, minutes, seconds vs. minutes and seconds

Most chess clocks are displayed in hours, minutes, and (possibly) seconds. A few however are (or can sometimes be set to be) displayed in minutes and (possibly) seconds.

For example, for G/90;inc30, under the first scenario the display, assuming its showing seconds, would read 1:30.30 (one hour, thirty minutes, thirty seconds) at the start of the game and under the second scenario, again assuming it’s showing seconds, would read 90.30 (ninety minutes and thirty seconds) at the start of the game. Which do you prefer and why?

Which do you prefer and why? You’re not a professor setting forumites essay questions. If you want to get a discussion started, please be good enough to weigh in with your own opinion.

Alex Relyea

It would be nice if chess clocks, even in h:mm:ss mode, would allow minutes to be set up to 99 – but only if h=0, I would think.

It would also be nice if leading zeros could be suppressed. For example, let’s say the time control is 2:00:00. When the time drops below 1 hour, it should switch to mm:ss mode, suppressing the leading zero and the first colon. When it drops below 10 minutes, it should switch to m:ss mode, suppressing the 10-minute digit. When it drops below 1 minute, it should display as :ss, not suppressing the colon.

Even below 10 seconds, the main time should still display as :ss. Having both seconds digits always displayed, along with the colon, helps distinguish the main time from the delay time. Some players, if they saw (for example) just 7 and 5 with no colon and no zero, might be momentarily confused, and unnecessarily startled, as to which digit was the main time and which was the delay.

Bill Smythe

In other words, leading zeroes should be suppressed, except for the ones you like.

Yes, absolutely. I like leading zeros when they tend to reduce confusion, but I dislike them when they serve no such purpose.

Bill Smythe

I currently have no preference on it either way which is why I was asking others if they had a preference and why.

Which do you prefer and why? If you reply to a thread, please be good enough to weigh in with your own opinion. :slight_smile:

But what confuses you may offer clarity to others.

I would agree that once one is under 60 minutes any hours component should go away. But once one is under 60 seconds I find 0:30 more useful than 30.

And personally I feel digital clocks should always show the seconds, if only to confirm that they are, indeed, counting down, which was why analog clocks had spinning wheels or other devices to show which clock (if any) was counting down.

That means in delay mode there should always be a SEPARATE visible indicator of the delay countdown.

The only digital clock that displays the time, the delay countdown, the move count, and seconds from the 20 minute mark in the most optimal fashion is the Excalibur. You can even tell what setting you are on. Unfortunately, the mushroom buttons which can be noisy do not endear many to the clock, which is understandable. The DGT NA clock flashes delay in small letters which are difficult to see. You cannot tell if it is set for 5 second or 10 second delay. It does not show seconds until you are under 20 minutes. Even so, it is still easier to set delay or increment than on other clocks. It can set hours, minutes, and seconds. The flashing lights on the ZSmart clocks, both in delay time and regular time is annoying especially when in time trouble. The Chronos can show time down to hundredths of a second, but this can be annoying to see as the speeding countdown can be distracting. My preference is to see hours, minutes, and seconds, but I really do not think you have to see the seconds counting down until the 10 minute or 20 minute mark. When you have 100 minutes left on the clock, seeing the seconds counting down does not matter very much. The delay should be under the main time in large enough numbers to see, like the Excalibur, or in a special box by itself.

So you are agreeing with me, then, on the first half of my preference, and would go even further than I would go on the second half, by keeping not only the colon but also the minutes’ digit.

We agree again.

Agreed again. This means, though, that clock manufacturers will have to go for larger displays (probably two-line displays) that have room to display both h:mm:ss main time and dd delay time (up to 99 seconds) simultaneously. Not to mention, space for the move count for each player – two digits, or perhaps two-and-a-half (i.e. up to 199 moves).

Bill Smythe

Weighing in before Mr. Price can: no clock can display the move counter. It can only display the clock press counter, which may or may not be the same thing. The scoresheet is the only real move counter, and then only if it is reasonably correct.

Alex Relyea

Yes, but when over 1 hour doesn’t the Excalibur display h:mm in large digits, and :ss in smaller digits in a different location on the display? That can be confusing. And doesn’t it display seconds in large digits only when it’s under 10:00 minutes? Plus, it displays the move count in only one place, instead of two. For example, white may have made 18 moves while black has made only 17.

Isn’t there one model of Chronos that, in one of its modes, replaces the sixth digit with four smaller digits, arranged in a square? The top two could be for delay seconds, and the bottom two for move count, all while displaying h:mm:ss full-size for main time. But the small size of the delay display might be a bit uncomfortable.

Bill Smythe

Aw, come on. Micah has certainly riled up a few of us with his question, and that’s what we all want.

I would, however, like to know what opinion Micah eventually forms, if any, and it might even be interesting to know whether his eventual opinion has been influenced by any of ours.

Sure, but that’s boring. There’s really no important reason to change the terminology.

Bill Smythe

The VTEK 300 has a two line display like this. The base time is shown in H:MM:SS and takes up approximately the top two-thirds of the screen. For delay time controls the word “DELAY” and the delay countdown in digits (which are large enough to easily see) are both shown underneath the base time when a players delay time is counting down and takes up approximately the bottom one-third of the screen. For multiple time controls, if the move counter is on the word “MOVES” and the number of moves that have been made are shown below the base time for each player. For multiple time controls with delay and the move counter on, the display covers up the number of moves made during the delay countdown.

Maybe we should go “green” and return to the use of analogue clocks. :mrgreen: It would alleviate the problem of battery disposal and effects on the environment. The Insa clocks and Coldfield clocks were easy to read and more accurate than the BHBs. They showed how much time you had left when in time pressure. The fetish for “seconds precise” devices is against all the strategy of trying to run the opponent out of time or providing pressure to accept a draw through a lack of certainty. In a more positive vein, we can then teach kids how to read clocks and time. This would be a boon to clock makers and create jobs to “make chess great again.”

NO!

Just to throw a little monkey wrench into the works, it appears that the international standard (for time-keeping situations in general) is to use a colon between hours and minutes, but a period between minutes and seconds:

h:mm.ss

The DGT clocks do it this way (and probably some others do also), i.e. h:mm or mm.ss or m.ss.

Bill Smythe

The image of chess in the public eye is that chess players use analogue clocks. The advertising media and the movies ignore that digital clocks are used. The tossing out of tradition has made it more difficult to market the game. Analogue clocks were simpler to understand, explain, and use. Many clocks had a pleasing aesthetic look. People watching the games thought of chess as a high class game. Many of the digital clocks are cheap looking, overpriced, and require reading manuals with 2 point type to figure out how they work. The resistance to the digital clocks and the speeded up play that they influenced was well founded. Rather than buy a $100 digital clock, many analogue clock users dropped out of the game. You may think, “Good riddance,” but their loss was difficult to make up. Only when digitals dropped to around $50 did we see an increase in tournament players.

One of the important elements in tournament chess is time management. With analogue clocks you only had a finite time to use, just like in life. This guided the opening you used, what you emphasized in study, and when to initiate complications. Good technique was important. Now players focus on the openings considering endgame technique superfluous as in fast games you often do not get the ending or play only trivial positions. This has a bad effect in the development of young players as learning the endgame requires time and persistence. The last thing you learn is the easiest to fall apart.

Did players bash clocks? Yes. That was part of the drama of the game in the last few minutes of play. Clock bashing is one of the main arguments used against analogue clocks. But today’s players bash digital clocks all of the time. If you bang a digital hard enough it can reset. Analogue clocks do not reset. If you drop one, the sturdy things may end up with a cracked plastic face, but you can still use them. Players always complain to me that their digital clocks are broken and are reluctant to spend the money to buy a new one. The cheaper digitals do not last that long; many do not have delay or increment timing.

While batteries on digital clocks last a long time, you still have to replace them. Do you recycle the batteries or do you toss them in the garbage? The long term effects on the environment of us tossing batteries and electronic equipment are clear. Analogue clocks do not have the same environmental problems. They can be handed down to new generations as usable antiques that are not difficult to set.

We were sold a bill of goods by electronic clock manufacturers and federations that thought they would make a killing on sanctioning and selling clocks. Rules were rushed through did not take into consideration what the players liked and preferred. We got stuck with every faster time controls and fewer events that allowed for more serious study of positions. The fact is that lousier chess is being played now and we are ignoring it because profits drive the organizing of events in both the scholastic and open tournament environments. When you pop in your old games with slower time controls into a computer program you find that the games were of higher quality than the Game 30 games you are forced to play now because increasingly that is all there is. So, I really don’t care whether we place colons or periods between hours, minutes, and seconds. The Koolaid of using digital clocks and fast time controls has hurt the game. If we would have tournaments that allowed us to use our old Jergers, Insas, Heuers, and even the BHB (which is still sold as a standard tournament clock) I would be happy to play in one. I would then use my digital clock only in “baby” tournaments.

BTW, I have shown kids how to write algebraic and descriptive notation on their scoresheets. The majority prefer descriptive notation. Why? They prefer to write “P” for a pawn move and do not like to look at the letters and numbers along the side of the board as they are distracting. They also like to write in capitals rather than small letters. Even when told that writing algebraic is easier and that new books are written in algebraic, they still balk and prefer descriptive notation. There is something comforting in the fact that when given the choice, kids will often prefer tradition over a faster paced digital world of AI and Terminators.

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I’ve ever seen on this forum.

I have trouble finding even one sentence in Tom’s post that I consider ridiculous, though there are several that I might disagree with at least a bit. It’s a matter of perspective and experience.

Among older players, I have little doubt that Tom’s views are fairly widespread.

I’ve had numerous conversations with others at national events along similar lines.

Evidence suggests that even among young players, as they get better they gravitate towards slower time controls, although they also gravitate towards blitz events, presumably for fun.

And I can confirm that when I was trying to teach notation to 4th grade students, many aspects of descriptive notation were far easier to teach.

Sometimes “ridiculous” simply means “I don’t agree with it”. In any event, the competition for “most ridiculous post” would be very stiff indeed.