You are explicitly declining to satisfy one of the requirements for certification. Granted, it’s a silly rule, and granted, it has been waived before. But complaining about it in a forum like this is not going to do any good. If you are unwilling to play in a few tournaments to get a rating but wish to continue directing tournaments, you should petition the TDCC to either a) change the rule or b) give you a waiver.
OK, that’s what I needed to know. Now, how do I go about petitioning for a waiver?
TIA,
AJG
Jorge, I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.
If you’re designing an event that you expect to bring in more than 50 players, you’d be well-advised to find a local or senior TD to help you run it, but the USCF isn’t going to come after you if you direct it yourself.
Dear A. Jorge Garcia:
Just call Larry Pond (845) 562-8350, ext. 182. As you said your term ends August 31, 2004: he can just re-new your club tournament directors certification.
Do not worry about the TDCC soon will talk about them, if the TDCC must do all this work to have every club tournament director re-newed then they would have to work a 40 hour week in New Windsor. If that is the case they be standing around the office all day drinking coffee. The TDCC is a email group that sends emails with questions back to each other and give ideas on the tests. If the TDCC has to give there concent think how many would be on vacation some place, doing whatever they wish – some how Larry Pond or anyone in the office is not going to speed dial there cell phone number just to get there vote yes or no on just renewal of a club tournament director. Do not know how many members are on the TDCC but some how calling each one or emailing each one to get a majority for this issue would be more then annoying.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
Mike,
Would it be possible to get an official statement on from Bill G on this topic? Or maybe Tim Just or Larry Pond could address it? This thread is just going to go on and on until something of that sort happens, since the folk asking questions here don’t seem to agree with the answers they’re getting. I realize that each individual situation could be unique, and that the TDCC members can’t or won’t answer every hypothetical question, but perhaps a general confirmation or clairification from Bill, or even better Tim or Carol Jarecki could put some fears to rest.
BTW: I assume Tim and Carol are part of the TDCC. Is that correct?
Terry Winchester
Dear evansvillecc:
If you have more then 50 players but plan only to have less then 50 players just send the tournament in for rating. Would you tell someone that has been on the road for a hour and would be the 51st entry, would you tell this person sorry get in your car and drive home as this tournament is full.
If you do have more then 50, you plan only on 40 and you noticed you have 80. The prize fund was set up for 40 people, take 40 people and set it up as a tournament and give the prize fund money out for these 40 people. Take the other 40 people and set it up as a tournament, give the prize fund money out for these 40 people. The tournament was set up for 40 players, handing out prize funds for one tournament would be just as equal as the other 40.
Do not have players in one section/tournament play with the other section/tournament. If this does happen, it is not the falt of the players as it was the directors error on the paring. If you have a 5 year old boy with you, the child ask what bathroom to use: you would not tell this child to use the womens bathroom, or just say use any bathroom you want – then you would be in error.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
I highly doubt Bill or any USCF employee is going to post a notice saying it’s OK for you to flout the standards on what level of TD you need for your event. I don’t know that anyone on TDCC or Rules has been active here yet, I can mention that at the TDCC and Rules workshops next week.
I’m fairly sure that if you exceed the 50 player rule, nobody’s going to come down on you. If you can manage to organize 3 or 4 such tournaments, take the cotton-picking test!
However, if I was a member of TDCC (which, thankfully, I am not) and you made a bad ruling or did something else that was appealed to TDCC, the planned size of the event could become a mitigating factor. If it was obvious that you intended the event to draw more than 50 players but didn’t plan on having a TD certified to direct that size event, that could affect any penalties assessed.
As I said some days ago, the requirements for needing a local, senior or national TD are there for everyone’s benefit and protection, especially the players.
Dear nolan:
You are right. Having a tournament when the director plans to have 20 or 30 players at best then find they have 51 or more would not be a problem. The one major reason for myself to take the test back in 1997 was of this problem. If having a tournament with a plan 20 or 30 players and find having more then 50 would cause some ethical problems to rate the event.
Like myself, and would say the majority of tournament directors at the time of registering: would not know the final number of players till the start of the first round parings. As most players would come to register at the last few minutes, some times still needing to take care of the players at registering, when the first round should have been started.
If someone is a club tournament director, and thought that the event was only going to have 20 or 30 players and find during the first round parings they have 51 players. How could a director tell one out of the 51 players sorry you are going to have to go home: thank you for driving down to the tournament and this is your refund for the tournament entry fee. Even if the director did have a list of everyone that came too the event and know how many players they have – would a player that became number 51, that had a two hour drive to the tournament just to find out they are not wanted because of a cap of players the director can have. If that rudeness came from the director, and supported from the federation: that would be good ground for some players to leave the federation.
If a club tournament director, did have a tournament that the information gave the prize fund so high, or informing the prize fund is award at full prize with 100 players – then the director should get a local or senior tournament director. Even in my state of Michigan, would only say a category C tournament is not the norm – only a few happen each year; having a category B tournament, outside the Michigan Open would be near zero, unless it is the scholastic tournaments the Michigan Chess Association performs each year.
If a club tournament director sets up a tournament with a three day event with a total prize fund of $1000, a entry fee of $50, a time control of G/120 SD/60 with 6 rounds – then the director should have understood it could become a category C tournament. If a club tournament director sets up a one day event with a total prize fund of $200, a entry fee of $20, a time control of G/30 with 4 rounds – then the director should feel it should only be a category D tournament.
If a club tournament director only wants to be a director of a category D tournament, then the director would have to keep the total prize fund low and the entry fee also low. If the club tournament director does become a local tournament director then the director can give a greater total prize fund and ask for a higher entry fee – then the tournament would have a better chance to become a category C tournament. Some players do ask why these tournaments the entry fee is so high, one of the reasons the director needing to keep the tournament from becoming a category B tournament – as most of these tournaments are done from a local tournament director.
The great problem for directors when they do use their certification at there certification level at their category level tournament: greater risk of capital if the tournament goes south. Just like in Michigan with the Great Lakes Campionship, $8,000 guaranteed prize fund, 60 grand prix points and only 77 players: some tournaments you feel like taking the window then the stairs – this is the reason for keeping my tournaments small, less of a risk.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
Douglas,
What the devil are you talking about here? Did I say something stupid again? I havn’t a clue as to what you are implying that I said.
I don’t believe that I ever suggested skirting or flouting any USCF policies, and I certainly didn’t intend to imply it. On the contrary, I am a by-the-book sort of guy. If the rules say it, I believe it, that settles it! Of course, I don’t mean for that statement to imply that I agree with all the rules, only that I intend to apply those rules to the tournaments I direct. I have done that for 18 years, and don’t feel the need to change now.
My point to the post which you quoted was that which you stated. Ah, geeze, this is getting frustrating. Look, the rules are the rules. Look 'em up in the book. Club TDs are limited to an expected attendance of up to 60 players in their events, if they are using pairing software, 50 if they are not. If you are running a tournament in which you honestly expect less than 50, you should be fine, even if you get more players. If you are expecting more than 50, then you need to have a Local TD. Damn, I’ve forgotten the original question to all this.
My point was that this issue is going on and on, and that LocalTDForsythe doesn’t seem to like the answers he’s getting, so he aparently needs an official to make a statement for them.
Mike, I agree with all you have said. I din’t mean to imply that TDs could intentionally get around the rules. Maybe I’m guilty of not reading the posts of some posters as well as I should before replying. I will try to correct this.
-Terry
the topics in this post seem to change from experience requirements, to TD limitations, to whether or not one needs a rating to be a Local TD. How my replies implied that I would send people home because I wasn’t certified at the proper level, or why I would send a boy to the girl’s bathroom, I haven’t a clue. I also don’t know when I concurred with LTDForsythe’s suggestion to submit a tournament report in two sections simply because more than 50 people showed up at a Club TD’s tournament. Someone please enlighten me!!!
-Terry
Dear posters:
The best place to add more information would be at “Established over-the-board rating for directors needed!”
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
OK, these threads are getting way out of control! I’m not the one talking about the 50 player max. Also, I did not invoke the TDCC. I just want to know how I can run my chess club next year and have rated events for my members as I have been doing now that my Club TD is about to expire and I haven’t met the “established rating” requirement.
It would seem that I must call Larry Pond and petition for an extension of my Club TD. This is what I was asking about at the beginning of this (or was it another) thread, but I kept getting quotes about Local TD requirements implying that I could not get such an extension. It sounded like some sort of Catch-22 whereby I couldn’t get such an extesion unless I took and failed the Local TD exam, but I couldn’t take the Local TD exam without having an established rating…
Could I just email Larry?
Thanx,
AJG
I think it would be good, though, if you would honor the intent of the rule, which is to make sure tournament directors are familiar with how the other half lives.
A director will be a MUCH better director if he occasionally plays in tournaments himself. You really should educate yourself as to the other side of the equation you are establishing.
It should not be hard to play 20 rated games of chess. All you need to do is play in a few of your own tournaments, even as you are directing them.
Bill Smythe
True, but my chess club usually only runs one rated QUAD or OCTO each week and we only have about an hour to do so. So we usually play 3RR or 3SS G/10s. The established rating has to be a classical rating, not a quick rating, right?
In fact, I have an established rating in quick chess just because I do play in my own tournaments now and then when we only have an odd number of players!
BTW, don’t you need 26 rated games at G/30 or slower to get an established classical rating? If so, I have 12 games done over 3 years and need another 14. I seem to remember 26 as the required number because they put a letter after a provisional rating from A to Z.
IE:
1200D would mean a 1200 provisional rating with 4 rated games,
1300Y would mean a 1300 provisional rating with 25 rated games and
1400 would meen a 1400 established rating with more than 26 games.
My problem is that I go to a 4SS G/60 only once or twice in a year. I’m very busy with family and work obligations and don’t have the luxury of time to play more classical OTB touneys. I wish I could, I do enjoy doing so!
I would like to get this resolved soon so I can get my Free RBO TLAs in on time for Oct. 15th! If I’m not allowed to run rated events, I’m going to have to cancel my TLA. I had a free one each month last school year and had them stopped for the summer vacation, but its slated to restart in Oct. FYI, its the first one listed under New York (because its listed Every Monday, not by specific date) in the Mar - June TLAs last semester:
Every Mon (Except Holidays). BHCC RBO U1200 Quick Quads! 3RR, G/10.
Room 429, Baldwin High CC, 841 Ethel T. Kloberg Dr., Baldwin, NY 11510.
$$12/Quad. EF: $6. Reg: 2:45. Rds: 3-3:20-3:40.
Ent: paypal.com
Info: A. Jorge Garcia via calcpage.tripod.com/bhcc
Regards,
AJG
It’s not obvious from the rulebook whether a TD must have an established regular rating, or whether an established quick rating would also suffice. Maybe some TDCC person could jump in here.
In any case, Jorge, if you already have an established quick rating, and a provisional regular rating based on 12 games, you’re pretty close already! I’m guessing the powers that be would have no trouble extending your Club TD certification for a year or two while you go the rest of the way in establishing your regular rating.
Bill Smythe
Dear A. Jorge Garcia:
This is one of the major problem with the local tournament director must have a established rating. As good as can be recalled, this rule was the same as in the 3rd edition official rule book: was the rule during the 4th edition that was official in the early 1990’s. Then there was only one established rating, some tournament directors that are higher then a club level still have a provisional quick rating or have a unknowed quick rating.
As your term ends in August, asking for the local tournament directors test at this late time, when the federation will let the director have for a number of weeks to study – then send back the test that could take weeks before the final grade. Even if the federation would or could send you this test at this late date, would be like starting to doing your federal income tax on April 15.
If can be right you did not want to become a local tournament director in the first place. Just call Mr. Pond and tell him everything, if correct he can give you a second term as a club tournament director, then you should only need to take the local tournament directors test again before August 31, 2007. If you do not call, then do not ask why you are a decertificated
tournament director next September.
Last spring we talked about you having a tournament with you and your son and some other person just to get that provisional rating changed to a established rating. You only needed to play 14 games and set the time controls at G/30 – you just needed at most 14 hours behind a chess board. Then run a tournament, set up the players to help you get this established rating: then play and send in the tournament report.
The reason the TDCC and the federation want all club tournament directors take the local tournament directors test: as in the past was a huge amount of people that were club tournament directors, and only were club tournament directors in name only. If a club tournament director does not want to take the test at the end of their term, then they will be decertified. If they do take the test and failed the test, then even failing the test they gave the effort to try.
During the number of weeks reading and making myself even change my foundation on how a club tournament director can become a local tournament director. Just see someone that only wanted to be a club tournament director, the last hope is calling Mr. Pond as it is now way to late to take the test and be sure you would pass and have graded before the end of the month. If you could not be the director with two other friends to give you a established classical rating, or even take the local tournament directors test and fail, if you are unwilling to make a phone call – then can only see someone that does not want to be a tournament director.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
That’s what I said some time ago, but I think that Larry Pond himself jumped into one of my threads about this a few months ago and said that an established quick rating was not enough.
I hope you’re right. I think I’ll just have to call Mr. Pond tomorrow.
I’m sorry, I’m not one to complain, but why does the USCF sponsor this forum if USCF officials don’t want to contribute to it? I would think that a forum such as this would be the ideal place to iron out problems like this. Does Mr. Pond even have an email? I happen to be on vacation right now, hence all my posts lately. Usually I’m very busy and have no time for long, drawn-out phone conversations. That’s why I rely a lot on email and forums and listservs even in my day-to-day work. That’s why I was one of the first contributors to these forums and I congratulated the USCF on their efforts in setting up this venue when it first started out!
Unfortunately, there’s a lot of, if not missinformation, then misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the rules going on around the threads of these forums! More people from the USCF office should monitor these forums and contribute their expertise. Those that already contribute should say whether what they are saying is official or they don’t really know. Also, all contributors should really identify where they’re coming from: if a USCF member or not, if an OTB tournament player with an established rating or not, if a certified TD or not, if a USCF official or not, etc. As an example of what I mean, see my sig file below!
Regards,
AJG
This is what I called in another thread the Catch-22 of TD certification: you can’t extend your Club TD Certificate until you take and fail the Local TD Exam, but you can’t take the Local TD Exam until you get an Established Classical OTB Rating, but you need to extend your Club TD Certificate until you get your Established Classical OTB Rating, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum!
I’ve been told, in no uncertain terms, that I cannot even apply to take the Local TD Exam (ibid: see Catch-22 above).
I don’t think I particularly need the Local TD Certificate, but I would take the exam just so I know I have a renewable rank if I pass (and I won’t have to go through all this at the end of each term)!
OK, I think I’ll call him tomorrow. Sorry, I’m not a slave to the phone…
I don’t understand why he can’t reply to my queries on this forum. What’s this forum good for without USCF officials and experienced TDs contributing their expertise? Can’t I just email Mr. Pond?
Yes, thanx for your suggestion. I went ahead and played that 14-hour match with my son. I won 9 games, he won 5 and there were no draws. However, I was about to submit the match for rating when all the hullabalu about came up about matches being valid only between players with already established ratings! Remember that thread? So, we played 14 hours over several weekends for nothing… 
FYI: uschess.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34
What???
Regards,
AJG
Did not know you did play that 14 game match. Glad that you did and glad you are sending the match in to be rated. This is the problems with the 5th edition offical rule book, we do not know for sure if the club tournament director must have a established classical or a established classical and quick. The rules say that the local tournament director and higher needs to be a established players even that some at this level have provisional quick ratings.
One part of the rule, that all club tournament directors must take the local tournament directors test, then if this player is not a established or even have any ratings. Is this director still forced to take this test because they must take the test before and fail before they can ask to be a club tournament director. If they are force to take the test and if they do pass the test then how can they be a local tournament director when they are not a established player.
When they came up with the 5th edition, they just past and copy these rules when they did became part of the rule book before:
-
club tournament directors needing to take the local tournament directors test before the term ends, the rule needing a established rating when a club tournament director must take the local tournament directors test. Then the bias that all club tournament directors would have a established rating when that answer is false.
-
what is a established rating, this rule was before having two ratings of classical and quick. Does the federation want the director to have a established classical rating, or a established classical and quick rating. As some certified directors above the level of club only have a provisional quick rating or a unknowed quick rating. Can these directors say they have a established rating when they also have a provisional quick rating, or the federation only wants a classical rating as the only title norm to become a established player. If that is the case how do we define a quick rating, as a person can be a established player with only a classical rating and not need a quick rating – then what do we call a quick rating if it is not a over-the-board rating.
Only the Policy Board at the US Open can change the offical rules of chess, as the US Open is only a few weeks away and feeling there is little or no grass roots movement on this problem. The two schools dealing with these two ethical problems can only be settled during the 2005 US Open Policy Board meeting.
At this time call Mr Pond, very sure that he can make you a club tournament director – as club tournament directors have a three year term you would be a club tournament director till August 31, 2007. Send in the match and when it is rated, you do have the credits to take the local tournament directors test – then ask to have the test sent to you and we do hope that you pass the test. The reason, having the match rated will take as it is a match around 2 weeks to be rated. The local tournament directors test, they give and feel it will take a person weeks: even give around 90 days before sending the test back to the federation for grading. Then with the back up with the federation it will be weeks after they do get the test back before they grade the test. Wanting to say that you are under a harsh dead-line before the end of August.
The federation gives waviers left and right. The goal of the federation is to make sure that you do not get decertified, as you have made post after post very sure Mr. Pond will give you a waiver on this issue.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td