Club TD maximum players

Running Chess Tournaments
1

It may not happen to the tournament I am planning to organize, but with scholastic players you never know. Sometimes they come in individually, sometimes they make it a group “outing” and came in busload. Anyway, if I have a Club TD certification my maximum is 50 players and a friend of mine also have the same level of certification, between the two of us can we co-direct a tourney drawing close to 100 players?

I said that we can, but my friend says that in this situation we’ve got to hire a Local TD. Which one of us is correct? I like to say I am, but I could be wrong as well. A third party opinion is most welcome.

Thanks,
Connie

2

USCF Rulebook, Chapter 7, Paragraph 24 entitled THE CLUB DIRECOR : Limitations states: A Club TD … should not be the Chief TD of … any tournament, or section of tournament, expected to draw more than 50 players. Computer-assisted club TDs can be the chief TD of any tournament, or section of a tournament, expected to draw up to 60 players with the aid of one assistant TD."

From your ealier post, I assume you have access to computer pairing software, so the last statement may apply to you rather than the “50” quote you suggested.

Now, as I interpret that, I think the key word there with regards to your question is “expected.” If you expect 40 and 150 get dumped on you, there is no official USCF problem with that. If you had 150 last time and expect only 40, people may wag their heads a little, especially if there are problems. However, USCF has enough problems of their own to deal with right now than to butt into a successful program.

That being said, it is always good to follow the rules to the best of one’s ability. Maybe you can find a TD-friend with higher certification to be on call if you feel you will be overwhelmed. Maybe just plan to work it out by yourself until your maximum is called, and then find a different solution for the next event. You can raise entry fees to compensate having to hire a professional TD for the occasion. Another option is to run some very small club tournaments whose sole purpose (just about) is to help you meet the experience requirements for your Local TD certification. One last possibility is to recognize your current limitations and simply not guarantee on-site entries. That way you will have three days or so to make plans based on the turn out you do have.

I hope some of this advice helps.
Ben Bentrup

3

Dear ChessMama:

You and this other person are both club tournament directors, can understand the problem of having more then 50 players at your event. Even that it is a scholastic event you could still get over 50 players to the event. As you are not sure that the event will draw more then 50 players, and most events will have less then 50 players. Would not even get a local tournament director to be the director unless you feel that you cannot do the work, as you both are club tournament directors you both want to get the credit for this event.

Break the event into two tournaments, even if you have 40 players break the tournament into two sections then having a open. Take the top section and send it in as one tournament, then take the bottom section and send it in as one tournament; with the first (section/event) become the chief tournament director and your friend as your assistant and with the second (section/event) your friend become the chief tournament director and yourself as the assistant. As both of you are club tournament directors you will in time need to take the local tournament directors test, it is much better to take the test before not at the end of your term as club tournament directors. The reason to bring up the idea of having the event broken up as two events as you both will get the one norm of being the chief tournament director of a category D tournament, and you both need to be one time or the other a chief tournament director.

Even if it is less then 50 players just break the event up, if you do have more then 50 players then just break the event up into two different events or better if you know you will have more then 3 sections have the one day event broken into 3 events making each of you the chief tournament director of one of the events. If you do have more then 50 players and breaking the event into 3 sections/events you will have in one day had 3 tournaments that are category D and a total of 50 entrants.

The Local Director Experience Requirements.

Satisfaction performance as chief TD of one Category D tournament and chief TD or assistant TD of two additional Category D tournaments of at least three rounds which total 50 or more entrants, … Category D. Any USCF - rated Swiss system tournament or section of a tournament, … drawing fewer then 50 entrants.

Sure that your tournament will have less then 50 players, as you thinking that it will be around that many players you could even break the event into two tournaments or even keep it as one. As you will still need to have 3 rounds for the swiss, make sure that the event could be into sections and as it is a section you could have it rated as a tournament on its own. It is a judgement call, and can only be done at the time of the event if the tournament could be broken into 2 sections.

Want to say that you know that both of you sooner or later going to take the local TD test, why not start to think of the day of taking the test and get the norms out of the way. If you are the only one as the chief tournament director and the other director as the assistant would not matter how many events or entrants you have both set into the federation the the director will have to have one as the chief TD but you still will get credit as the assistant and get more players for your entrants.

Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td

4

Any other comments on this? I don’t think I like this roundabout. It seems to me to be cheating the system. Besides being against what you advertised, and thus, surprising to some players, it isn’t really two tournaments. It is two sections at the same location at the same time - one tournament. The normal chaos that ensues is the same as one big one, not two small ones. Both TDs may be stepping on each other’s toes in the nerve center. Can a player now play in both events? Be eligible for both prizes?

My gut says do not take this recommendation which although may seem simple on appearance can have many unforseen variables. The whole point, of course, is for Mama and friend to gain experience in easy predictable settings, not to be have the local TD card as soon as possible.
Certainly if a suggestion like this gets widely practiced, a new TD will learn that he can “direct” (under a much higher-level Td’s guidance) and turn in, as his first tournament, his state’s class championships, and have all the different sections rated as separate tournaments, thereby passing most of the requirements in one swoop. Fortunately the testing requirement exists for those who would try to finagle the actual turn of events. I hope some of the other TDs have ideas on this.

5

Well you did not get the idea, as most or all scholastic events are in sections then having a open. In a section the players are and will only play people in their section, as in say a adult tournament with open, under 2000, under 1600, under 1400, ect – if that is how the director has the event.

As both women are or looks to be working with each other to have this event, as she plans that the event to have more then 50 players a director could take the top sections and send it in as one tournament that has less then 50 players and the bottom half and send it in as one tournament. The only mix was has switching around the title of chief tournament director just to get the credit for taking the local tournament directors test.

The answer that was given by myself was not my idea in the first place, other directors have told me this idea, in fact a Senior Tournament Director that is a member of the Tournament Directors Certification Committee told me this idea some time back. If you want to call the Tournament Directors Certification Committee member a cheat that is fine with me; then again they write the tests, they also have a great deal of power in what happens with the USCF’s official rules of chess. Just because they get the norms faster to take the Local Tournament Directors test does not mean they will pass the test.

When myself became a local tournament director back in 1997, there was not any double rated events to get me closer to the norms. As G/30 and G/60 time controls are now duel ratings, having a event with 25 players with a time control of G/30 is still a tournament with 25 players, as it is duel ratings for a club director it is now 2 events with 50 players. As the director has credit of a classical time control of G/30 with 1 event with 25 players, and credit of a quick time control of G/30 with 1 event with 25 players. With one tournament, this director has doubled the players and the event itself.

There are a number of club tournament directors out there that have the norms to take the local tournament directors test; does not matter to me that they hold off till the end of their term to take the test or take it as fast as they want. Want to say just get the norms out of the way, then if you want to take the test or not is up to the director. Even know a few club tournament directors that want to fail the local tournament directors test at the end of their term, as they do not care to be a local tournament director.

Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td

6

I agree with bbentrup. Although I don’t understand how one player would be able to participate in both tournaments, as Ben put it: “Can a player now play in both events? Be eligible for both prizes?”

At any rate. This does seem to not only be cheating the system, but also cheating oneself out of experience possibilities. Remember, one expects to be directing bigger and better events in the future. You should want to be the Chief TD of as many tournaments as will gain you the experience in pairings and in problem solving.

To follow Mr. Forsythe’s suggestion would be to allow the one TD credit as Chief TD of an event in which that TD was not actually the Chief.

To be fair, Mr. Forsythe’s recommendation seems only to attempt to get around the possibilty that USCF won’t rate the event because there were too many players for the TD’s certification, which is not correct. USCF will rate the event, and the TD will get the due credtit. As Ben previousy quoted, the key word in the Limitations is “expected” attendance.

If you expect to have only 50 players, then you are good to go. But if you expect to have more than 60 (the rules allow for up to 60 if you have a pairing program), you should have a Local TD there. Of course, perhaps you and your friend are the only TDs available. In that case, I’d suggest that you go ahead with the tournament, and have as many assistants as you possibly can - actually, 3 assistants should be plenty for up to 100.

Again, I think the premise of Mr. Forstythe’s suggestion is to circumvent the issue of having a certification that’s not ideal for the number of players.

In short, you should follow the USCF guidelines/rules/policies.

Do note, however, that “In unusual circumstances two directors may jointly function as co-chief TDs. Each co-chief receives USCF credit for one tournament with one-half the total number of entries”. Chapter 7, #11.
Cheers,
-Terry Winchester
Evansville, IN

7

It may not be a nationwide trend, but in Nebraska it is not unusual for players to play in more than one section simultaneously. I think they’re out of their minds, but it’s not against the rules. (An organizer who want’s to can always state in the advance publicity that players may not enter more than one section.)

I also think the base question is looking at this the wrong way. The reason for advancing levels of certification isn’t for the TD’s benefit, it’s for the players’ benefit and for their protection.

The larger the event (and/or the bigger the prize fund), the more likely it is to lead to situations where the TD has to read between the lines of the rulebook. An inexperienced TD may not make the best decision in such a situation, and may even make a wrong decision. (Even NTD’s make incorrect decisions.)

Thus, if the organizer is designing an event that expects to draw enough players to require more than a local TD under the standards, which usually includes things like making sure there’s enough space, sufficient tables, etc for that many players. part of that design process is getting a sufficiently qualififed TD to run it.

8

The last time I thought that a section had a number of people that play each other, and the other section that people play each other. Did not say a open with class prize I said a section. Just made a point that if a event did have close or more then 50 players then break it into sections and send it as a two tournaments.

Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td

9

Can understand needing experience to become a local tournament director, a club tournament director could take the local tournament director test – never been a chief tournament director or assistant tournament director – only a member of the federation for three years and being a club tournament director for three years before needing to take the test. How is having satisfactory performance for three years as a club tournament director, without being a chief tournament director or a assistant tournament director. Even with that, a member of the United States Chess Federation can become a club tournament director without even being in a single tournament.

So in theory a member can become a member of the United States Chess Federation, sign up to become a club tournament director, then only be a active member of the United States Chess Federation for three years. Just having a membership to the United States Chess Federation and a certification as a club tournament director, only having the experience of having their United States Chess Federation membership, and certification as club tournament director cards in their bill fold is a very week reason to let someone take the local tournament director test.

If a member can become a local tournament director without being a chief tournament director, or assistant tournament director, or even play in one tournament, only need to be a current United States Chess Federation member for three years during the term of being a certified club tournament director. Talking about having club directors get more experience before taking the local tournament directors test, some how the argument of what the limited experence a person needs before taking the local tournament directors test, the limited experience is so week.

Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td

10

Perhaps you’re not “reading between the lines”, as nolan mentioned in his post?

Satisfactory performance means having performed (as a TD) satisfactorily for three years. What USCF considers satisfactory, I cannot, for sure, say. But I bet it doesn’t mean that you can simply hold a USCF membership/TD ID card for three years.

I think we’re analying this too much. The USCF rules are not that unclear in this situation.

I cannot take the ANTD test because I lack the experience requirements for that level, even though I have been a certified TD for 17 years, have directed 84 events since 1991, http://www.uschess.org/msa/MbrDtlTnmtDir.php?12492977, and have probably seen and/or discussed almost every possible situation that can arise in a tournament. I’ve served on the floor as paid staff at 5 Nationals, including 2 SUPERNATIONALS. But until I actually get that experience (which is uncertain to happen in my poorly chess populated area), I am stuck at Senior.

Now, I said all that to say this: Simply taking a test without having the experience is not an exception to the experience requirements.

11

Dear evansvillecc:

Send me a email at localtdforsythe@yahoo.com, do have information dealing with a member that was a local tournament director that has zero events. So in fact a member can be a club tournament director and have zero events and zero players. The reason for not posting the information is why make a name out of this man to show you the evidence.

Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td

12

I doubt that over the years the requirements for getting a local TD card have remained constant. For a while, I believe they permitted people to take the test at a national tournament, closed book, and if you passed, regardless of your experience level, you got a local card. I don’t know if that’s still the case.

Also, relying on the USCF’s records of who directed what event (such as in MSA) is not recommended.

13

To be local you’re supposed to have an established rating, but I can think of one unrated NTD. So this excellent TD must have been grandmothered in under old rules; its good to know that flexibility is permissible. BB

14

Expiration. Three-year nonrenewable term. After three years, the club TD must apply for local TD status. The Tournament Director Certification Committe (TDCC) may, at its discration, reinstate club TD certication for a TD who fails all the local TD tests after three full years of experience.

Established Ratings. Except at the club level, all certified TD’s must have an established USCF rating as an over-the-board player. TD’s are ecouraged to raim active as players to maintain proper perspective when directing.

This is my little problem with the 5th edition, that came into effect January 1, 2004. If a club tournament director, never been an active tournament director, must after three years take the local tournament directors test; if he wants to be a local tournament director, then must have an established USCF rating. If someone is a club tournament director, if as a player, never went to any tournaments, would not have a established over-the-board rating, the club tournament director ‘must’ take the local tournament directors test – after being a club tournament director for the full three-years. If anyone wanting to become a local tournament director must have a established over-the-board rating, as it is also clear that anyone that does not have a established over-the-board rating can not take the local tournament directors test.

The word must is a command word, the rule with the word must is a final command, it is a word that can only be black and white. As it is a rule then it is a order, if it is a rule it could be a law. If a judge in open court tells someone, as a judgement, a rule of order, or the rule of law: you follow the will of the court or do not follow the will of the court.

The official rules of chess, if a club tournament director must take the local tournament directors test after the end of their term as club tournament director, if not a established over-the-board player how then could the director take the local tournament directors test. If the club tournament director can take the local tournament directors test without being a established over-the-board player, how can these two rules be the official rules of chess for the very small but a small group of people that would have this conflict with the offical rules of chess.

One rule must be in error, as both rules are in conflict with each other.

Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td

15

Mike,

The closed book test is still available for Local TD. The experience requirement is then reduced to directing (chief TD) one, three-round tournament of less than 50 players. That option has been available since 1987, at least, and has not, to my knowledge, ever changed.

I don’t find this as an option for any level above the Local level, however. Seems the TDCC could provide a closed book test for Seniors and above as well.

16

You have quoted the relevant rules: All TDs must have an established rating.

Therefore, they would not be eligible to take the Local TD test. Where’s the misunderstanding here, Douglas?

As to not having lived up to the experience requirements of directing the number of tournaments listed in the rules, the rulebook states that the TDCC, at it’s discretion, can reinstate the club TD certificate for those who have failed the local test. This does, of course, assume that the applicant has taken the test and has failed it. If the applicant doesn’t have a rating, that applicant would not be able to take the test. The TDCC would probably reinstate the club certificate for another three years, and instruct the applicant to become an OTB rated player.

I believe the answere here is: they can’t take the test!

Douglas, I have to agree with a few others here. Please get someone to help you with your postings. We have to read these post 3 or four times sometimes to understand the point or question which you are tyring to convey. The length of your posts are also, at times, not required. For instance, we understand that in order to obtain a rating one would need to play a rated game.

17

I know they used to offer the senior test closed book to local TD’s, because I took it at the US Open in Portland and passed it.

However, that was over a decade ago.

ANTD is a different situation. That’s supposed to be a learning experience, and there are portions of it that require researching specific issues that a NTD might have to face in preparing for some types of events.

18

The question remains: what is a Club TD to do who hasn’t meet the requirement of an established rating in 3 years? Does he have to close-down the club he has built from the ground up until he does have this rating and then take the test for Local TD?

Regards,
AJG

19

Of course not. The USCF is not going to refuse to rate a tournment because the TD does not have the right certification – you can’t penalize the players for the TD’s misbehavior. But the only way the situation you describe is going to come up is if a TD deliberately provokes it. The rules work (more or less) because everyone agrees to abide by them. If someone should insist on making an issue of this – by explicitly refusing to play in a few tournaments and get a rating – the only practical effect will be to lower everyone’s respect for the certification system.

20

Excuse me? I’m the Club TD in question. Exactly what misconduct are you referring to? I’m trying to abide by the rules. I simply haven’t had the time on my hands to get the “established rating” required. So, I can’t take the Local TD exam yet and my Club TD 3-year term is up this month.

My concern is for my club. I’ve built it up from nothing in three years to a major contributor to school events. Now, when I finally get enough interest drummed-up to get several of my members to join the USCF and run rated events, I’m going to have to tell my membership to forget it.

Disheartened,
AJG