Does anyone know the effective difference in the FIDE rules between the “+” and “-” forfeit codes and the “W” and “L” codes for games which lasted less than one move?
fide.com/FIDE/handbook/C04Annex2_TRF16.pdf
Apparently (if you trust the JaVaFo implementation of the FIDE Dutch rules), “+” and “-” have different implications for pairing later rounds than do “W” and “L” but I can’t for the life of me find anything in the written rules that explains what those are.
I would recommend contacting two places:
Alon Cohen, Secretary of the FIDE Systems of Pairings and Programs (SPP) Commission at ratings@fide.com.
It seems possible that “+” means the player forfeited, but talked the arbiter into letting him back into the tournament anyway, while “-” means the player forfeited without notice and should not be paired in future rounds.
Bill Smythe
Well, “+” is a 1.0 forfeit and “-” is a 0.0 forfeit, so that really isn’t it. The issue is “+” vs “W” and “-” vs “L”. And it would have nothing to do with whether they can be paired for future rounds because they are being paired for future rounds, just paired differently.
Could it be as simple as they are “colorless”?
Alex Relyea
I’m wondering whether the "L and “W” are for dealing with a player refusing to play someone else (due to a boycott or similar). If they are considered to have “played” for pairing purposes but not rating purposes, that would change pairings in later rounds.
Ah. I just read the document you referenced. Perhaps L and W are games that are paired not played but + and - are for players that are not paired for a particular round???
Alex Relyea
Instead of us continuing to guess what the answer is to this question I suggest that following Chris Bird’s suggestion to contact the people at FIDE who (presumably) know the answer is the way to go.
+1
I just had a conversation with a FIDE colleague from the QC who gave me a little insight.
The difference between the codes is to distinguish between actual forfeit wins, a player not showing up marked as +/-, and say a game where a cellphone goes off on move 1 but neither player has made enough moves for it to be rated, hence it should be marked as W/L. It seems the FIDE Technical Commission (TEC) at one stage was interested in knowing how many times this occurred in events as opposed to normal forfeits.
According to my colleague, Swiss Manager will allow you to differentiate but when I checked SwissSys, it doesn’t have that option. I can state from my 2+ years of submitting reports for USA registered events that I’ve not seen a game coded as W/L.
It should (pretty much by definition) have no effect in a rating report. Unfortunately, JaVaFo generates “W” and “L” (possibly also “D” codes, though I haven’t seen one of those—would that be if both players’ cells went off before anyone made a move??) in its random tournaments and there is no documentation about how that affects future pairings; it’s just clear that it does. Given that JaVaFo, in effect, defines what is “correct” Dutch system pairings now, that’s quite unfortunate.
I have sent emails to the two people you suggested. I hope someone can clarify it.
Not from the FIDE officials suggested by Chris Bird, but from another source, the “W”, “L” and “D” codes are for phantom games which are equivalent to played games for pairing purposes but not rated. (Basically something like 1 e4, draw agreed or player resigns without a reply from Black.). A rather narrow definition, to say the least. Apparently there has been some discussion to extend it to played games which are unratable for, for instance, the T/C being too short for regular rating of one of the players (which would make a lot of sense and actually give it some practical value) but that hasn’t been done yet.
From the FIDE Arbiter’s manual:
Not disagreeing, but that seems horribly contrived. I mean how often can this possibly happen that we need a whole set of codes?
It would be like identifying separate procedures for a player spilling water on the board or spilling coffee on the board.
Alex Relyea
And that doesn’t define what “W” and “L” mean. “+” and “-” are also used for the typical forfeits (player fails to show). My understanding is that the excerpt from the FIDE Arbiter’s manual is addressing a very narrow case (#2 below). From my understanding:
A “played” forfeit is considered to be played for pairing purposes, i.e. colors attach and the two players are considered to have played. #1 and #2 above are unplayed, so they have no color implications and the players are free to be paired later.
Just being on site makes it a played game even though Player B never made a move? Really? I’d like someone from FIDE to explain that one. The explanation should be entertaining.
He means “played” in the sense that it counts for colors, but not for rating. That’s the difference. A normal forfeit is considered unplayed and the assigned colors don’t count and can be reused. Neither type of game is rated since you didn’t have a move from both sides. I’m not sure it’s worth the difference, but there it is. Apparently SwissSys doesn’t think it’s worth it either as I don’t believe it has a way to record that.
I understand what he means. I would just like FIDE to explain why it makes a difference if the non-offending player is on site or is not on site. In both cases the non-offending player makes no move, but in one the colors attach and the players are considered to have played each other, and in the other colors don’t attach and the players are considered not to have played each other. I’d love to hear their rationale for this difference.