“eNotate is an approved electronic scoresheet for USCF rated tournaments.”
Found the above on a sellers website. Has any one used it?
Comments please.
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A little over a year ago, I decided to get either the eNotate or the Monroi.
I found a Dell Axim x51 on eBay for a little over $70 and the eNotate program is $25. I bought a 2Gb card to store all the games on for $10 and I was set. When comparing my total investment of under $125 complete (I bought a stand on Amazon to hold it upright while using and a Dr. Grip pen with built in stylus that was thicker and easier than the enclosed, toothpick sized stylus) that was a much better price than the $359 that Monroi wants.
There are a couple of kids that have the Monroi device in our area. In fact one father bought an eNotate for himself. I asked him how they compared and he said they were similar in performance for the individual player.
When I use my eNotate, the game entry is easy and quick. It is necessary to put the game info in before starting. Your information is already in the program. It’s the opponent’s info that you will put in along with the tournament game specifics like the round number, color you play, and so on.
As I said, entering the game moves is quick and easy. The unit is set to dim at 30 seconds and power off at one minute of non-use. The power button is pressed; touch the piece to be moved; touch the square that it is being moved to and that’s it. It actually happens faster in action than it takes to read it. People have said that it might be something the player could analyze on but that’s not real. If someone were going to use it for analysis they would be staring at the unit much like they would if they were analyzing with paper and pencil. It would be obvious.
When the game is over there is a link to a page where the final outcome is entered and two spaces for signatures by the players. After that, it is a tap to save the game.
Later, I use the Axim/Windows program to copy the game score to the memory card. That takes about a minute. I then take the card out of the unit and put it in my card reader on my laptop. There I copy the game file to the laptop where it is already in pgn. I save it in my database. I also can email it to my friend(s) if need be. This takes less than 5 minutes.
All in all I would buy another one of these units or something similar if this one died. It is worth it.
Key electronic component is Axiom x51. An x50 won’t work…personally frustrating experience.
Not true. An Axim x50 will work but has to be upgraded to Windows Mobile 5 which is supports. Many of the users are doing so on an x50.
What doesn’t work is the x5 or x3 models or any ‘v’ series model (until the next code release comes out that will address that one).
Meh, color me unimpressed. If you’re picking up an Axim x50 off of Craigslist, it probably doesn’t have Mobile 5 on it. So… “Not true IF you spend more time and money to upgrade.” Say whatever you’d like, that doesn’t change my experience.
After wasting hours on the effort, I’ll stay with pen and paper. Point is, if you’re thinking of eNotate…get the Axiom x51 with pre-loaded Mobile 5 or above. Or check with Sevan on buying a package deal (Pre-loaded Dell Axim x51 with eNotate). Saves a lot of frustration.
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The problem I see is that the eNotate uses old devices like the Dell Axim, which are no longer available as newly produced by the company. This necessitates finding the devices on places like Craigslist or eBay. I just purchased a larger battery for it off Amazon, so “parts” are still available for it.
I guess the software needs are big. Having someone write the code for an iPad app probably takes a lot in time and energy. The new Androids and clones would also be nice to be able to use.
The Monroi has their devices made specifically for them. The problem I have with that is the upkeep in time. To get a new battery, for instance, I believe you need to send the unit back to Monroi and pay them to install a new one. They are also quite a bit expensive for the unit, at the $359 price they charge.
What we need is for these to be produced and sold cheaper. As an example notice the digital chess clocks with delay and increment. We currently have at least 3 clocks available for under $50 where they originally could be had for no less than $100 a few years ago. Yes, we need an Excalibur score keeping device.
We have an iPad, iPod Touch, and Android version under development along with an updated Windows Mobile version as well.
We’re hoping that this will be available by the X-mas time period.
Wouldn’t that depend on where the device was placed relative to the board? And whether the opponent were wearing sun-glasses? The more platforms there are for electronic score-keeping, the more difficult it will be to detect one that’s been hacked or modified. There are a lot of ways to discretely pass some information to the player (e.g., the presence of a winning combination) – shading, fonts, intensity, etc.
While that’s possible, I really don’t see it as being probable at all.
Whether using the Monroi or eNotate devices, and whether the device is lying flat on the table or propped up as I have it, the move entry time is literally seconds, and I mean definitely under 20 seconds even with a mistake or so.
The device sits to the side of the board as would a scoresheet. Sure, someone could hold it in their lap or at the front of the board, but then it would be obvious where the person was looking, really. The devices should or would be looked at no more than a written scoresheet.
As to the software/devices being hacked, I am sure it can be done. However that would also be noticeable by any onlooker including the opponent.
I know that if I were playing someone that was also using a device like these, I would be confident that they could not cheat without detection.
I have owned my device and used it for over a year now. Sevan has the software set up so it completely overrides any other program and button on the device. The only way you can get out of the program to others is to end the game with a result, and that also would be very obvious.
So to say that someone would cheat with one of these devices is possible but actually extremely not probable.
Sevan,
Despite being a certified technophile, I can’t see anything good about having score keeping programs that run on mobile phones. As a TD the one thing that makes me okay with eNotate is that it only runs on obsolete hardware. I’ve had several people make comments about it recently and I’ve assured them that it can’t be running any chess playing software. If I’ve got people running around with tablets and phones that they are using to keep score, I think I would go insane.
I’m pretty sure that if eNotate is ported to iOS and/or Android, I would have to advertise that it is not allowed in any tournament I organize or direct. I’m sorry about that but the alternative is a cheaters paradise. I’m sure I would gain many more entries than I would lose with this rule.
Mike Regan
Where did I say mobile phone?
iOS runs on iPads and iPod Touch. Notice I didn’t say iPhone.
Android runs on tablets that can be purchased for sub-$200.
I have no intention on having it run on mobile phones and am looking at mechanisms to prevent them from running on mobile phones.
Let’s say that x seconds after you enter the opponents’ move, a few pixels change down in the corner if and only if it detects a certain condition. When you enter your move, the pixels change back. You don’t have to stare endlessly at the screen. With practice, your eye just sweeps over it and it’s unlikely your opponent would notice. The amount of information that could be conveyed this way is limited only by one’s ingenuity.
It might be challenging to program a device to withstand detection via a detailed examination by a knowledgeable person, but for the opponent to identify it based on where the cheater is looking? Doubtful.
The MonRoi, as I understand it, is a sealed box with hardware and software integrated. With a general purpose box, where a score-keeping program is installed by the end user, the cheat could replicate the UI of known software with completely different programmatic guts. The greater the variety of these programs and the more platforms on which they run, the harder to identify a fraudulent one.
I’m not confident you can allow an app to run on an iPod Touch but not an iPhone.
Better to specifically post on the nachess.org website that TDs could (and should) disallow the use of eNotate if it’s on an iPhone. It’s pretty easy to tell the difference between devices.
I am pretty happy to hear about an iPod Touch version. Running my music and eNotate at the same time sounds pretty good.
Yeah we believe we’ve found a way of doing it because of some differences in the iOS that can be keyed in upon. The key is whether or not Apple will allow an app to work on the iPod Touch but not the iPhone.
We know that we can force the phone into airplane mode to disable all wireless (as we do on WinMobile).
Here’s an interesting issue though - I can’t easily find the rules about use (from a players’ perspective) for an electronic scoresheet, but I thought that it has to always stay at the board - so if the player using it decides to get up and walk away from the board, tough luck, its gotta stay there. How many people really obey this rule (and that it’s enforced) with a $350+ MonRoi or would be willing to with an iPhone or iPad.
Scoresheet remaining at the table isn’t explicit, either for paper or electronic. Although it falls under “common sense” (don’t take your scoresheet to the loo to avoid suspicion), TDs should definitely call that out to players using electronic scoresheets. Players using electronic scoresheets (especially non-MonRoi) know they are asking for more oversight until the TD/organizer is sure there is no funny business.
Maybe this is relying too much on the goodness of others, but I don’t have a problem with leaving an iPod Touch on the table during a tournament game. I would definitely say something if someone tried to walk up and take my opponent’s device.
The rulebook changes document does not contain any specific requirement to leave the electronic scoresheet at the table. However, Appendix F of the USCF National Scholastic Chess Tournament Regulations do require this. Appendix F also states that the player may “request the TD to provide security for the Device when the player uses the restroom.”
It still seems totally nuts that the rules committee allowed the use of scorekeeping software that runs on general-purpose hardware. IF there’s any real way to detect a “work-alike” cheating program, I’m not aware of it. Is there any information available to concerned TDs? If not, it’s crazy to allow these things to be used in any tournament with money at stake.
I’m convinced that the monRoi people at least made it a little difficult for somebody to cheat using their hardware. What evidence is there that we have any safety when allowing this software to be used?
Time to deflect the argument again with another rule change: you have to make your move first, before writing it down.
Unfortunately Mike, this idea of yours doesn’t hold water in real life applicability. If the x of x seconds is more than 1 or 2 then it would be apparent and obvious the player was doing something other than keep score with the device. A thinking time of 1 or 2 seconds for a program is not much for a decent playing ability.
I own one of these and have used it. I also have played against opponents and watched players that own either of these devices. There is no good reason to look at the screen for more than a second after you have made the move on the screen. I have not seen anyone look at the screen for any real length of time of 3 or 4 seconds after the move has been input, especially when inputting the opponent’s move. The typical action is to input the opponent’s move then immediately look back to the board and the pieces. The action of inputting the move takes no real attention. This is also very true as the game progresses.
Sure, someone could get all techno-geek and change the insides of one of these things AND change the program to analyze. However, that is a very, very difficult and expensive thing to do. And if someone has the technical ability and where-with-all to do such a thing, why is he playing Chess for money? He’d make a lot more doing something else with that technical ability and performance.
Sevan,
Let’s think about the situation that we could be in if eNotate is running on Android and iOS devices. I’ve got a room full of players with IPADs, Ipod Touches, and Android tablets of various form factors. Now every one of these devices can run chess playing programs. How am I supposed to monitor them? What happens if they don’t like leaving them at the board? Since they need to carry them with them after the game, I’ve got spectators holding them while looking at games.
Since all these can connect with either 3G or WiFi, how are they any different than a phone? Sending a receiving texts is a lot easier than talking on a phone and, in fact, that’s the method the French players used to cheat at the World Team Championship.
Because we don’t want any communication to anyone outside the playing hall, I would have to outlaw all devices with WiFi or data connections. That is all of these devices. So, the bottom line is that this cannot possibly be allowed to be used in any tournament.
While I know there are clearly advantages to recording directly in an machine readable format, the disadvantages of allowing all these devices are huge.
Mike