Elecfronic Score Keeper And Time Notation

Running Chess Tournaments
1

I have used electronic score keeping for about 6 years now, with a 6 - 8 month break. I have used the eNotate from about 2009 until about a year ago. I quit using it because the program had a flaw in it and would lock up during the post-mortem. This would not happen every time or at any particular place during the game. I had contacted Sevan, tried a different device and downloaded and installed the software a number of times to no avail, so I just quit using it. I recently bought a PlyCounter and it works fine. However, there is no way to know how much time each move takes or has elapsed during the game.

So, here’s my question for the TDs of this forum. While using an electronic score keeping device like the Monroi or PlyCounter, would it be legal to have a blank scoresheet next to the device and keep the time, as is allowed per the rules, on that blank scoresheet? There would only be the time written on the sheet as the moves will be kept on the device. And there very well will not be a time notation at every move.

What do you guys and ladies think about this?

2

I would have no problem with that, either as a player or as a TD. As far as I am concerned, it is well within the rules.

3

I think you answered your own question. Just don’t write notes of playing faster, be happy… :smiley:

4

Yeah, I kind of thought this was alright. But I could see someone complaining that it is taking notes or something, only because it is a separate written paper from the actual game score.

5

Let them complain. The TD will decide if it is notes or not.

6

I love it when Yoda speaks. :slight_smile: This particular TD would refer the complainant to Rule 20C, and then dismiss the complaint.

7

What if the TD determines that they are notes? Since you say you will not be writing the time down every move, what if your time markings are a super secret code to “use your time better” or “stay focused” or an indicator to look at a particular move later? Will you use different color pens to mark certain times?

Using the electronic device and a score sheet overcomplicates things. You look silly using both at the same time, while opening yourself to being questioned concerning your behavior during the game. Make sure to wear your wrist watch, Apple watch, Fitbit device, and have your decoder ring on you when you play. :laughing:

BTW, what is an “elecfronic score keeper”? We can’t let you use one of those! :smiley:

8

All of this is obviated by the plain language of Rule 20C.

9

The “plain language” of Rule 20C is inadequate to cover the case where a player is actually using his notation as a code to himself concerning his behavior during the game. Especially if he is looking at the markings while wearing his GoogleGlass device. :smiley:

It is under TD discretion to determine if the use of multiple means to record is a distraction to others. If a complaint is made that it is a distraction, then the TD may determine that the score sheet or the electronic device is to be used, but not both. He can also dismiss the complaint under 20C. He has more than one option depending on the circumstances and I would not be so quick to dismiss the complaint as at least two players’ interests are at stake and the issue can arise again. I am fully aware of the limits of the discretion a TD has under Rule 1 and Rule 21K.

The use of electronic devices of all kinds and their presence in a tournament venue is creating more issues. I have seen players hold their recording device between moves, staring at the screen, which appears to be a violation of Rule 20D. One guy dropped his Monroi on the table several times; his hands were greasy from eating a sandwich. A player with an Apple watch looked at it multiple times during a game. His opponent complained. He was keeping track of the score of a football game, but was told to remove the watch and put it away. People at tournaments walk around with tablets and keep track of their kids’ games, and even analyze positions using chess engines during the progress of the game. This leads to complaints of cheating if the parent comes into contact with the child.

When I saw the first use of a Monroi at a tournament, one of my first thoughts was a camel nose has appeared under the tent. I had already seen the impact of computers on chess in the '80’s and the attempts to come to grips with computers in competition. The use of electronic devices in our daily life since then has expanded enormously and is difficult to monitor and control. Instead of using Thoreau’s maxim to “Simplify!” we have made our lives more complex. Why is a simple score sheet not enough to record a game? The player can import his moves and time markings into his database later at his leisure. If speed is so essential to add the game, then the player should have his computer/laptop/tablet under the supervision of the TD until such time as it is used. Too complicated? Sure. Then simplify so that we do not have to make up more rules to accommodate.

10

Players are frequently allowed to keep duplicate notation in a game, especially in the case where use of a particular scoresheet is required by the organizer. However, the organizer does have the right to require that only their provided scoresheet be used during the game. (Of course, this wouldn’t apply to this thread, as the premise assumes that a player’s personal electronic scoresheet is in use to record the actual moves.)

Moreover, the hypothetical raised by the OP isn’t even a case of duplicate notation. Here, the player is simply tracking the clock times on each move.

As long as the player’s scoresheet(s) remain(s) visible, a TD has no basis in the rules for not allowing the player to record his clock times.

11

Boyd has clarified the situation, perfectly. Thank you, Boyd.

12

As I am unfamiliar with the details of this new-fangled contraptions, how does eNotate (or other such devices) keep track of the time? The wall clock time elapsed between moves being recorded won’t necessarily correspond to chess clock time if the chess clock ever gets paused.

13

The devices don’t keep accurate track of the time. I don’t see how they possibly could. It’s not just limited to pausing the clock. What about delay? What about increment? It’s simply not possible unless the device is somehow plugged into the clock reading the time directly. As far as I know neither the clocks nor the notation devices are capable of that.

14

Sevan did have an option on eNotate that would keep track of each move’s time. Of course this would only give information as to how much time elapsed between move entries. Delay or increment never came into the picture as it was only giving how much time the individual move took.

When I used the eNotate I unchecked this option. Well into the game, I have been know to not enter my opponent’s move right after he made it and started my clock. I would do all my thinking and make my move. Then when I went to enter my move, I could not as I had not entered my opponent’s move first. So I would enter his move and then mine just after hitting my clock button. This ended up giving my opponent my thinking time in the record and me having, literally seconds of complete thinking time for my move, which of course was not accurate. And I did not do this all the time, so it was not precise time recording as well as being inaccurate.

The other problem I had with that automatic move time tracking was that I don’t keep track of every time move. There are always some moves that are kind of instantaneous and there really is no need to keep track of that time. Of course I record the time showing on the clock, i.e. the remaining time in that time control or for the rest of the game.

In the 6 months or so when I was between using the eNotate and the Plycounter, which I now use, I kept written score and I would write the time down when I felt like it or thought of it :slight_smile:

And Tom, these electronic score keeping devices have some very nice benefits. When using them, I always have a very exact and accurate game score. With the writing on paper, I have had occurrences where I forgot to write down a move or three. And there were times that I had written down the wrong square or something. And then there have been times where I couldn’t read or figure out what I had written. And I know that I am certainly not the only one that does this. The electronic score keeping eliminates these problems, for me, completely.

I also have a pgn file of the game that takes less than 3 minutes to load on my laptop and email to my opponent or others, like the TD.

I also have always used something to hold the device at an ergonomic angle whilst it sits on the table so I do not need to pick the thing up to enter moves. I learned this from Mark Nibbelin when I was running a tournament and he played in it using eNotate. He had acquired a box from Hobby Lobby that he fashioned into a case for his PDA that would hold it for transport and during use he would cradle the PDA in the opened box where it sat at the perfect angle.

I bought my setup shortly after and made sure I had a portable stand for mine. This makes it so the rule about always having the score sheet visible for the opponent and TD is followed. Also there is no need to pick up the device from the table, especially for the normal move entering. This makes it faster to enter the move, and more efficient in use during a game. .

Constantly holding and looking at the device does violate the rule mentioned above and would get a complaint from me. There really is no need to constantly peer at the device during play, ever.

15

I would think it would be possible for an electronic scoresheet to keep track of the time, including increment or delay, as long as it is told the time control details before the game. I doubt, though, whether any current electronic scoresheet has this capability.

If the device knew whether increment or delay were in effect, and the number of seconds in the increment or delay, the device should be able to come closer to the truth than it could without this information.

I think the device’s time count still wouldn’t be all that accurate, though. There will typically be at least a one-second interval after player B presses his physical clock and before player A finishes entering player B’s move. This could add up.

Bill Smythe

16

eNotate tracks time between move recordings. That approximates thinking time per move.

17

Very, very roughly. Please see Mr. Suarez’ post above.

Alex Relyea

18

OTOH, if one records consistently immediately following each move, not so roughly.

19

Agreed, but there is no reason, from a time management perspective, to do that.

Alex Relyea

20

My son is using Plycounter and from to time I need to send games to his coach, so I am familiar with device and Windows program.

When you connect Plycounter to a computer and access it with a Plycounter Windows program you can actually display timings for every game by selecting “time” checkbox. Once you do that you can see how long a particular move actually took.

Mikhail Koganov.