The first time I examined the clock was after both sides had pressed it 40 times and there was no display of the move counter. I don’t know if or what it displayed it during the first 40 presses as I was not asked to look at it until after 40. If it was displayed it would not help Black’s case to mention it as it would indicate that he never noticed even though he had almost 4 hours to notice the incorrect count. White also never spoke of a displayed “press counter” before 40. I never asked either player.
Perhaps someone with better knowledge of the various settings of a Chronos can tell me if there is a setting that displays clock presses through move “x” and then becomes hidden for sudden death. I’ve never owned one so I mostly know only the settings that are used in the events I direct and I try to avoid settings which use the counter. If it helps, the clock used was the longer model.
Ah, that makes sense…Yes, the move counter is not displayed for the final (ultimate) time control in a multiple-control mode…unless you choose the B modes, that is. (Chronos has many modes.) The A modes show the time tick down with seconds displayed for the player on move, even in the primary control. The B modes show the move counter even in the secondary/final control—I think.
I am sure about the A modes, as I used to use them for rated play. I am slightly less certain about the B modes showing the counter even in SD—but in any case I should have figured that you did not get summoned to the board until after 40 clock presses, when the counter would have “disappeared.”
If you choose a “main” Sudden Death/Delay mode rather than an A or a B mode on a Chronos, the move counter is displayed throughout the primary control, for both sides, but once you enter the secondary control the display shifts to show the remaining time count down, including seconds, for the rest of the game.
Apart from all that, which I did not word as well as I might have, how did the unlucky player who flagged, and his captain, respond when you told them “Players rely on move counters at their own risk.”?
Black’s main argument was that as the clock showed over an hour after he completed his last move that he never ran out of time according to the clock. It was difficult for him to deny the reality of the situation that he believed the clock over his own score sheet. I quoted the relevant portion of rule 42B2 from memory while at the board and then showed it to him and his teammates in writing when we took the discussion into the hallway.
When a Chronos clock is set for two time controls without a move counter, the clock will add the time for the second control (an hour in this case) once all of the time has been used up in the first control. This might have been what happened in the USATE game. Black’s flag fell on move 39 and the clock added an hour. Clearly Black should lose on time even though his clock shows an hour of time remaining.
I doubt this was the case here as it was stated in a previous post that the clock added an hour at the exact moment the 40th clock press was made, presumably with more than 1 hour showing on the clock otherwise a claim could have been made at this point, even if the players did think it was the 40th move.
Of course, for white to make the claim in the game, he had to make his 40th move and then wait for black to reach the 1 hour mark. Black obviously thought he was in the SD time control at that stage and so would not have been worried that the clock showed 1 hour or less.
That’s not what happened according to Black. He said that when he made his last move that the clock then changed to 1:00:08. Black said the clock never got to zero. I’m not aware of any Chronos setting that would add an hour before reaching zero unless it was tied to a move counter. It did this after Black’s 39th move because the black side of the clock had been started 40 times.
That had to be one of the modes that shows the move counter throughout the primary control, but not in the final control. That is the most common way Chronos clocks are set, from what I have seen.
Polly Wright made a good point: Did Black not notice the one-move discrepancy between his scoresheet and the move counter on the clock throughout the entire first time control?
Of course it never would have happened had White followed correct procedure at the start of the game. That is: Start his own clock, make a move, then start Black’s clock. The procedure White followed—simply start Black’s clock—is how things used to be done, (by the rules) back in the day, when there was no such thing as a clock with a move counter.
It’s a small world at the USATE: Our team had this very issue—White starting Black’s clock without making a move, when Black was late driving through a snowstorm—in round 5 Monday morning. When I and my captain pointed this out to our opponents, they insisted—to a man—that the rules allowed White the option to make a move or not at the start of a game where Black is late…and Harold Stenzel advised them they were wrong. This after I asked Harold about it as he adjusted clock times at the board next to mine, where one player was late and the player on scene could not find a clock for several minutes. Harold S. was a busy man in Parsippany.
Which sort of leads to: If a TD—not a player—noticed that the move counter was off, could or should the TD interrupt the game to adjust the counter? Does it matter if a national title might hang in the balance?
Without sounding too critical after-the-fact: There were lots of TDs at the USATE, including at least three NTDs. One wonders if this dispute could have been avoided…
You are absolutely correct Harold. There would have to be a move counter on to add an hour before the initial 2 hours completed. The 40th clock press added an hour to Black’s remaining 8 seconds. I guess thinking he had made 40 moves despite his score sheet indicating otherwise, he used up the 8 seconds before making his real 40th move. I presume this is what happened, because if he made his 40th move and some of the remaining 8 seconds was showing, White would not have made a claim, or if he did the clock would prove there was time left despite the additional hour showing.
If one of the players noticed the move counter was off by a half or whole move, he should have stopped the clock and gotten a TD to help them resolve the discrepancy.
In terms of TD intervention during the game, the answer is no. It s the players’ responsibility to notice these things. Now if it does happen early enough in the game and the TD does happen to notice it, or notice that White pressed Black’s clock without moving he can intervene. The TD tip related to rules 16I and 16J.
There is no way a TD is going know whether a move counter if off or not unless he’s looking at the scoresheets of the players. I suspect players don’t want the TD hovering over their shoulder looking at their scoresheets to see if they match the clock.
The short answer is that every board should be treated the same. One of the board 1 players even suggested different treatment on board one to Carol during the discussion and that was her response.
There were 4 NTDs. 42B2: “Players rely on the count at their own risk” would seem to indicate that the responsibility is not that of the TDs. I checked the clocks in the main ballroom every round to see if they were set properly in regard to amount of time and splitting the difference on late starts. Checking move counters would have been extremely cumbersome as some clock settings display in only on one side. The TD would need to wait until one side moved to examine the other. For some clocks the display is so small one would need to get very near to the clock. It might also be necessary to compare score sheets to move counters and doing so would only guarantee its accuracy until there is one extra or omitted clock press. If the counters were off, this would be a non-issue. As far as I know, there are no directors I’ve ever worked with that routinely check the accuracy of move counters unless specifically asked to by one of the players.
Every board and every player should be treated the same—but perhaps a TD could be assigned to observe the top match (or top 2-3 matches) from the start of the last round. If a dispute arises at another board, the TD can deal with it as needed. In the meantime the games that decide the title are under TD observation from the start. Just a thought.
Harold, as far as I can see there was no other way to rule on this claim and/or appeal. I checked my Chronos clock and it functions just as I and others said: When a mode that includes a move counter is selected, the move counter is displayed throughout the primary control—and also the secondary control for three-control events—but in the final time control the counter is not displayed. (Unless you select one of the rarely used B modes.)
I am surprised this dispute has not generated more Forum discussion. It’s a pretty big deal, if at least one-fourth of a national title was decided by a move counter being off by one move, thanks to incorrect procedure when one player was late at the start of the game, (a procedure that was legal years ago and would not make much difference today if no move counter is enabled)…which leads to:
What was the position when Black’s flag fell? Was Black losing or clearly worse anyway? Anyone have the game score?
Maybe the time has come to standardize the use of move counters on digital clocks. This dispute confirms the instincts that made me start this thread that it is best to keep the counter turned off…
The standardization should be, “If players are using a move counter in a non-sudden death game, the clock owner is responsible for knowing how to start the clock in such a way so that the move counter is correct. The opponent is responsible for verifying that the clock owner knows this procedure.” It’s the equivalent of 42B2, but more…blunt force.
After barely making it into a second or third time control, there’s no way in he11 I want (or want my opponent to) stop the clock and adjust the time. It’s distracting. It’s annoying. It’s unnecessary given the technology at hand.
Know how your clock works. Make sure your opponent knows how his/her clock works. If neither of these, read the friggin’ manual.
The concept of a move counter on a clock is hopelessly flawed. Counters will definitely get out of sync with the truth in a percentage of games.
The chess rules should explicitly state that the clock’s move counter is for entertainment purposes only. The TD should not take the move counter into consideration when he has to make judgments about the game.
Blatently unrealistic. A laborious and unpleasant hassle even if was realistic.
13C. Time Forfeit: “…Move counters, on clocks equipped with them, may not be used as the only evidence in claiming that the prescribed number of moves were not completed in the allotted time.”
I find move counters to be very useful. They’re not fool-proof, but then what is?
The most common use I make of the move counter is to glance at it and at my scoresheet to make sure I didn’t miss a move. I occasionally glance over at my opponent’s scoresheet to make sure it also agrees.
Relying on a move counter to be correct seems naive – though I will say that I don’t recall any instances in my own games where the move counter was wrong, but I’ve caught missed move pairs a couple of times on my scoresheet. If I ever noticed an error with the move counter, It’d be simple to correct it (or at least point out to my opponent, on my own time, that there was a problem).
Sure. Is that 1%? Is that 10%? Would the percentage be lower if the clock owner knew how to operate his/her clock and if the opponent verified this? We understand you hate move counters for whatever reason. Give it up. Move counters are part of every major chess clock. Better that players know how to use the counters rather than put a scarlet letter on them.
Please cite the rule that states “entertainment.”
Your laziness is noted. It’s not hard to verify if the beginning game should start “White move / White clock push” or “Black push / White move / White push.” That will keep the counter in line with the official moves up until someone makes an illegal move or whatever. Then players will do what we’ve done for decades…take personal responsibility for making time control even if the clock shows an extra hour of time.
A move counter can be useful to a TD, even when making a ruling.
Suppose, for example, that two players are in a double time-scramble and nobody is keeping score. The players are just shuffing the bishops and knights around, neither capturing, nor moving pawns, nor making progess. One of the players asks the TD to rule a draw. The other does not agree to the draw.
The TD does not feel he can rule a draw right away, but chooses instead to watch the remaining moves of the game, with a view toward possibly making a ruling later. So he begins silently counting moves. In the meantime, the claiming player looks plaintively at the TD every few moves, making it obvious that the player still wants a draw.
Once the TD has observed 50 consecutive move pairs without a capture or pawn move, he could reasonably rule a draw, even if the original claim did not state specific grounds (e.g. 50-move rule) for the draw request.
A move counter can help out big-time here. Without it, the TD could easily lose count. With the move counter on, the TD simply needs to observe the move count displayed on the clock at the time of the claim. During the subsequent moves, the TD observes that no captures or pawn moves are being made AND that nothing is happening that would throw off the move count. In this scenario, the TD could reasonably rule a draw when the move counter shows X+50.
Note that the move counter is not being used as the sole piece of evidence here. Also included in the evidence is the TD’s direct observation that there have been no clock irregularities.
There should not be any need for an elaborate justification. Rule 14F4f explicitly allows the director to use a clock with a move counter as a substitute for having a director or deputy count the fifty moves.
Bill Townsend is inputting the games (including that one) into Chess Base and will make them available but he has hundreds of games and he has many left to do. I didn’t study the position as the issue would have nothing to do with position on the board except to note that the player making the claim had mating material (he did).
While I have found move (clock press) counters to be useful in some cases, I have had far more cases where it caused a problem. Most of the cases in which it helps the TD are ones in which the players are already in a sudden death time control so there can be no time forfeit claim based on the number of moves played. While directors may have different experiences with clock press counters, I would be surprised if the majority of directors preferred their use in games having more than one time control. As for players preferring them, that’s another issue (42B2).
On the Excalibur Game Time, you can turn the display of the move counter off, but it still counts the moves (presses) internally. How would you set it to ignore move count and simply add the sudden death time after the primary time has expired?