Hi there. I’m new here in the forums, but have been playing in competitions for about 10 years. I have a question about my digital clock, the blue Saitek clock. Although it does count moves (you press the “moves” button to see the number of moves completed), it doesn’t add the additional time for the 2nd time control until you use up all your time for the first time control. So, for instance, you might be on the 45th move (in 120 min for 40 moves, 60/SD) and it looks like you only have 5 seconds left, when in fact you have one hour and 5 seconds. It’s a little unnerving, but it’s not the end of the world. The bigger problem is explaining it to my opponent when THEY freak out. I try to explain it before we start, but my opponent frequently says, “Well, then let’s just use my clock - it does it right.” I’m not sure which method is “right” - adding the time automatically after 40 moves, or the time not being added until your first time goes to zero, but I’m just wondering if anyone is familiar with MY clock and can tell me if I have the choice of having the time added at move 40. I’ve looked through the manual and see nothing about it.
One other note - some people seem to say the time SHOULDN’T be added at move 40 automatically because the move count might be wrong. But if the move count is wrong, then you’d still have problems if one player is running out of time right near the 40th move - if the clock thinks you got to 40 moves but you didn’t, and the player’s time runs out but they are given the extra hour, then that is also a problem, right?
I am very firmly in the camp that says “clock press counters are useless, time should not automatically be added after forty (or however many) clock presses.” Also, please carefully note that no clock in existence can count moves; they can only count presses. There is a dramatic difference, and the outcome of the 2011 World Amateur Team was directly affected by that distinction.
It sounds like you are assuming the time control is 40 moves in some amount of time (I’m guessing two hours) followed by sudden death in 60 minutes. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever if for some reason the clock counts forty presses before forty moves have been completed and adds the time for the second time control prematurely. If the opponent’s time shown on the clock drops below one hour and the player has a reasonably complete scoresheet that supports the claim that the opponent has not completed forty moves, then the opponent has overstepped the time limit and loses the game.
The debate continues as to which way is better. Adding the hour at move 40 can be a problem if the move counter is wrong. But, as long as at least one player is the careful type, who will notice if there’s a missed clock press and do something about it when it happens, it’s a nice feeling when the hour is added at the “right” time.
I doubt whether many TDs would buy that argument. If a disagreement develops as to which clock to use, the TD would probably say either way is legal, so the player with the black pieces gets to choose the clock.
Perhaps, but in this situation there could be a similar problem even if the counter is correct. If, for example, one player’s time expires at move 38, the clock would still add the hour, which could confuse both players. The TD might have to step in, explain the situation to both players, and rule that there has been a time forfeit. But what happens if the TD is as confused as the players?
Get a new TD. I agree with wilecoyote: move counters are evil.
I learned (or was reminded of) something about the Excalibur clock at the Eastern Class Championships last weekend: it’s important that the “FIRST” indicator is on White’s side of the clock. Otherwise the clock will think the wrong player is White and may add an hour prematurely. A player at the tournament was convinced that he had made the time control but lost on time because only 39 moves had been played, as demonstrated from the opponent’s scoresheet and from playing through the game.
In subsequent rounds I checked all the Excalibur clocks and found that about a third of the clocks had “FIRST” on Black’s side of the clock. Whenever I saw this I waited for a player to make a move, then I intervened and showed the players how to set the clock correctly.
I strongly believe based on personal experience as a TD that the preferred method of setting a clock is with no move counter. The rule is very clear that players may rely on it at their own peril. As stated on other topics, it counts clock presses, not moves. If an opponent “freaks out” this does not make the clock the problem. That player need to get familiar with the clock and take personal responsibility for knowing how many moves have been played. The blue Saitek is one of the most commonly used.
To toggle which side is “FIRST” on an Excalibur clock, pause the clock and then press the button marked “WHITE”, which is also marked “+”. This should be done at the start of the game. If it’s done after the game has started it might be necessary to adjust the move counter.
If “FIRST” is not set correctly, when Black presses the button to start White’s clock, the clock will think White has made a move. The move counter will be half a move too high for the rest of the game, so with a 40/2, SD/1 time control the clock will add an hour to both sides after White makes his 40th move, even though Black hasn’t made his 40th move yet.
Another unusual feature of the Excalibur clock which has caused unwary players to lose on time is that the move counter shows what move the players are ON, not the number of moves that have been MADE (as with the Chronos). If the move counter is 40 and it’s White’s move, it means that each side has made 39 moves and White is about to make his 40th move. If the move counter is 40 and it’s Black’s move, it means that White has made 40 moves, Black has made 39, and Black is about to make his 40th move.
I’ve been experimenting with setting an Excalibur clock with the move counter turned off. It almost does the right thing: it doesn’t count moves, and it adds additional time to a player’s side of the clock when that player runs out of time. What’s annoying, though, is that it indicates a time forfeit (flashing red flight and flag indicator) until the other player also runs out of time, regardless of the number of moves that have been made. I think this would be confusing enough that it would be better to turn the move counter on when using an Excalibur clock and make sure it’s set correctly. Better yet, buy another clock!
Apart from that I agree with you: clocks should be set with no move counter.
Thanks for all the responses and feedback, guys. Last night at a club game, there were several instances where the move counter would have been wrong (though it didn’t matter because it was game in 90) - once, my opponent (about 12 yrs old) moved into check and hit the clock. I hit it again and said he was in check and he had to do something different (I didn’t bother penalizing him). In that case the count would have been too high. Also, on a couple moves, he didn’t hit the clock before I moved quickly and hit (or tried to hit) the clock, so in these cases, the counter would be too low.
So, you’ve won me over, and I no longer have the nagging thought that my clock is sub par.
I think that white is set on my saitek simply by which button is up when I set or reset the clock, but I’ll have to check (though it’s not as important since it’s not adding time on the 40th move). I never noticed any indicator. Bob - one of my games at the Eastern Class Championships was one where you fixed my opponent’s clock. He was annoyed at the interruption, but if he realized the problems you’d had with another game, hopefully he’d have been more understanding. It is annoying when people don’t know how to use their clocks. I had to complain at the ECC when the clock on the board next to me was beeping, and I said to a player, “Your clock is beeping - make it stop.” The kid (~14) said “I can’t”. I said “yes you can”. “I don’t know how.” I said, “Then you need to pause the game and go find out how.” He didn’t, so I told a TD who had to teach him how. People love the chronos, but on MY clock there is a slider on the bottom that says “sound off”. Very simple!!
One last question. My husband sometimes treats his digital clock like an analog - he sets it for just 2 hours (in 40/2hr SD/60), then at 40 moves, pauses the clock, confirms with his opponent that they’ve reached 40 moves, and adds an hour. He tells his opponent that he will do this before they start. So, as TDs (those of you who are), would that be acceptable, or would you prefer (or insist upon) the clock’s only time control setting of adding the hour when one person’s time gets to zero?
Count me in the camp of preferring to use a move counter.
The opposing camp will object to me calling a move counter a move counter. Yes, the move counter really counts clock presses, but when the clock is set and operated properly–and I make sure mine is when I play, throughout the game–clock presses correlate to moves.
A small number of high profile, much discussed failures of players to set and use their clocks with move counters properly does not overcome fifteen years of positive personal experience of using a move counter as a check on my score sheet and to add time when the time control is made. When properly set and used, the counter benefits both players and directors. In those few cases where the failure to porperly set and use the counter leads to a claim, the director is capable of sorting it out, and the aggrieved player has no cause to complain, because s/he could have and should have properly operated or corrected the clock.
Now, when I direct, I have no strong preference as to whether players use the counter or not, so long as the player providing the clock is competent in its setting and operation, and can competently describe the operation to his or her opponent.
I think it’s better for the clock to add the hour automatically once the first two hours are gone, although with some clocks this isn’t possible. One problem with adding the hour manually after both sides have made 40 moves is that the players might not know how many moves have been made. One player might think 40 moves have been made and want to adjust the clocks, while the opponent doesn’t want to reveal the fact that the player has actually made only 39 moves. In most cases, though, adding the hour manually should be O.K.
Adding the time manually involves trusting the player who furnished the clock to know how to make this adjustment correctly.
Adding the time automatically at move 40 involves trusting the move counter to be accurate.
Adding the time automatically at time 0:00 involves trusting the players not to become confused or alarmed when it looks as though they have been cheated out of an hour.
I suppose clocks could start adding an “add next control now” function, and when both players agree that the next control has been reached, they could press a button and have it add now.
Adding the time automatically at move 40 has resulted in numerous time forfeits, so I consider that to be the worst option. Adding the time manually at move 40 hasn’t resulted in any time forfeits that I’m aware of, although it’s theoretically possible. My choice is to add the time automatically when the clock goes to 0:00, although it’s true that I get a lot of questions from players who think they’ve been “cheated out of an hour.”
That would have been quite annoying in last night’s game, to pause the game and fix the move counter on at least 3 different occasions.
Although I haven’t tested my Saitek, from what people are saying here, I think it will add the hour when one player’s first 2 hours is used up, regardless of whether or not 40 moves have been made (the clock, and the players, are not relying on the move count to be accurate). So lets say white thinks they have made 40 moves, but they have only made 39, and it’s white’s turn. They see their clock is about to go to zero, but they think it’s fine because they think it will add the hour as soon as it gets to zero. And it does add the hour, because it is not depending on the move count (if my assumption on how the Saitek works is correct). Black, who believes only 39 moves have been made, believes that his opponent has run out of time, since the fact that the hour was added indicates that white used up all of his first time control time. If I was black, I’d pause the clock and declare that my opponent ran out of time. He’d say no, he has an hour. Let’s say we check and confirm only 39 moves were made. I assume a TD would agree with me and say my opponent ran out of time, even though his clock doesn’t say 0:00?
Your husband might want to try mode DL-UP on the Chronos. This mode counts up (forward), just like an analog clock.
For example, at 40/120, you could set it to 4:00:00 initially, just like an analog. The first control then expires at 6:00:00, and the second (if one hour) at 7:00:00. No resetting, no move counting, no confusion, no muss, no fuss.
As might be expected of the Chronos, this mode also allows for a 5-second (or other) delay.
Has it really? Counting the report from ECC this weekend, I know of three (the others being USATE 2011 and Foxwoods a few years back). All three were reported on this forum–not experienced personally.
That’s three reports among thousands, if not millions, of games played. Over a span of fifteen years. All of which were avoidable by the players paying due attention.
