We are at the North American Youth chess championships in Mazatlan, Mexico right now. The North American FIDE director has decided that Monroi’s may be used by a player, but they have to physically write the moves down also. We cannot merely write the moves down physically after the game. They did say we could take 20 minutes off the clock and not notate physically, but the monroi could not be used to prove moves.
I thought FIDE decided the Monroi was a legal form of writing the moves down. From what I hear only the president of FIDE can overrule the North American FIDE Director.
The problem here in my point of view is that some of the younger players have used a monroi all their lives to write moves down. That’s not to say they aren’t capable of writing manually. However if you add the extra responsibility of writing a move down after you use the monroi it really throws them off thier routine. You may as well ask the Mexican player to drop a stone in a box after each move. I’m sure they are capable of doing so, but it would once again throw them off their routine and stress them during the game.
I don’t suppose anyone can get this changed can they?
Who’s the person that made the decision? Would Beatriz Marinello be the person to contact about this, or was she the person that made the decision?
I’m guessing it’s more likely to harm our team than some of the other teams, but it seems like a stupid decision for everybody.
Changing the rules that we expected to play under, literally at the last minute, is hardly fair play. It’s poor sportsmanship, IMHO, to spring this on players unexpectedly.
I’ll go further, this is a ruling that makes absolutely no sense. If using a MonRoi is believed to give a player some kind of advantage, then it would make sense to disallow them completely (though this goes against the official position of FIDE). Allowing them to be used but not to count as a scoresheet is a stupid ruling that seems to be intentionally directed at the US players – I’d bet that it’s the US players that have the most MonRoi’s.
As a last minute, unsportsmanlike attempt to put the “privileged” players from the US at a disadvantage in this international competition it would be inexcusable.
Standing up for our players and fighting against such rulings is the USCF’s job.
According to the FIDE rules:
“In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.”
So if the organizer wants to provide scoresheets and require players to use them. it would appear to be allowed. Actually this appears to also be the rule for USCF events. The organizer may allow the Monroi device to be used, but he can provide scoresheets and require their use.
Who are the organizer and the chief arbiter? I suspect there’s next to nothing the USCF can do, especially in a hurry. I think Beatriz is the Zonal President these days, but Mexico isn’t part of her zone, so she would have no authority. (The USCF’s preferences are pretty much ignored by FIDE anyway.)
Perhaps some folks might find this provocative “thought piece” by the author of the songs Short People and I Love LA useful; the song in question is called Political Science:
I would be equally critical if the USCF decided to run a national championship and not allow the MonRoi to be used after “endorsing” the product to players, parents, etc. If this were a “private” event, that would be different. It’s the “North American Youth”. It should follow FIDE’s policy unless it announces differently IN ADVANCE.
Keep in mind that some of the players are quite young. Taking notation might be rather difficult for them, especially if they have been accustomed to using a MonRoi in all their games up to this point. It seems obvious to me that this targets the US players. Allowing the MonRoi to be used but not counting it as a scoresheet seems ridiculous – it IS a scoresheet.
I’ve heard of some organizers that require players to use the provided scoresheets and nothing else. I’ve heard of organizers that let players use their own scorebooks as long as they make a copy after the game for the organizer. I’ve never heard of an organizer that lets you keep score in your own device or scorebook but WON’T let you use that score for making claims. That’s a policy that doesn’t make any sense.
I’ve heard of cautious (or paranoid) organizers that won’t let players use a MonRoi because of (misdirected, IMO) concerns about cheating, but I’ve never heard one of those organizers letting you use the MonRoi but NOT counting it as a scoresheet! What possible excuse is there for allowing the device, but not counting it as a scoresheet (which, after all, is the only purpose of the device).
The FIDE td is the really old skinny grey haired one. He evidently only answers to the FIDE president. Bill Hall is under the guy that made this decision.
I think the decision was made to hinder the Americans and Canadians. Much like only announcing it 3 weeks before it started.
To make it clear, I believe Dave is saying that the TOURNAMENT was only announced 3 weeks ago. In fact, when I looked on the FIDE calendar a few minutes ago, the dates STILL weren’t listed. (another nice way to give an advantage to the host country)
I don’t think most people would think it was fair if we held the “North American Youth” tournament in this country, invited players from Mexico and Canada, and only after they arrived did we tell them their players would have to keep score on a device they had possibly never used before. It would be completely unfair to make players (that had never used a MonRoi) use one without even giving them a warning ahead of the tournament.
I don’t see the current situation in Mexico as being any different. The MonRoi has been endorsed by FIDE for scorekeeping for several years. It’s been allowed at all sorts of FIDE events. It’s NORMAL for it to be allowed at FIDE events. But now, without warning, players from the US aren’t being allowed to use it for scorekeeping in an international competition. It may be the only way some of the players have ever kept score!
And if the MonRoi is the only way players have ever kept score whose fault is that? Would you have less of a problem if MonRois weren’t allowed in the playing room at all, and players would enter the moves from their scoresheets afterwards?
Maybe it’s just me, but I have no problem with an organizer requiring that a prescribed scoresheet be used during a game. (Assuming that is the case here…) And that’s not electronic scoresheet paranoia, as I would readily use one if I could afford one. Though IMVHO players should learn how to write notation properly before being allowed to use one.
If you want to run a little (or big) private (FIDE rated) event, that’s a fine policy. If you’re running a continent-wide championship aimed at young players, it’s not. When you’re talking about players 6 or 7 years old, WRITING legibly is an accomplishment – much less keeping score while playing. If your going to hold a continent-wide championship event with players from other countries, and you’re going to require something they don’t usually see in international competition (and, after all, FIDE has ENDORSED the MonRoi and allowed it in other events), then not telling them about it in advance isn’t fair. But then, neither is only giving them 3 weeks notice for the tournament.
The way this policy was implemented is clearly unfair. Nevertheless, I’m going to play devil’s advocate and say that if Mexican 6-year-olds can record moves on paper, so can American and Canadian 6-year-olds. Monroi dependence strikes me as akin to the lack of number sense I see in sixth- and seventh-grade math classes in which kids are accustomed to using calculators on every problem. Some of them can’t even tell you basic multiplication facts – they never memorized their times tables. They didn’t think they had to. Coaches should prepare kids for the possibility that their gizmos may be disallowed, and require that they learn to notate in writing so that they have a fallback.
Or the battery runs out…
I hope someday the technology in the DGT boards can be fit into the roll up vinal boards along with wireless. Notate on paper but also get the entire tourney as PGN afterwards.
I don’t mean any disrespect here, but if one is to take youngsters abroad to play in what are ostensibly important chess events, wouldn’t it be proper to learn all the rules, and to be able to do such things as keep score?
What if, in some countries, it was deemed “too hard” to teach the littlest kids the “en passant” rule? Should we waive that rule here if we hosted such an event, or accept it being waived for games involving players from that country?
International Master Dr. Anthony Saidy, M.D. - one of the most generous and liberal and articulate people in chess - recently raised questions about the value of official events for such young children. On the other hand, I am sure that the value of travel abroad at a young age must be tremendous, and I’m glad that so many families from this country and around the world are able to enrich their children’s lives this way.
The lessons for the young players ought to include learning respect for both the rules of chess and the customs of one’s hosts, and parents and coaches might be well advised to read Cal Ripkin Jr.'s wonderful little book, Parenting Young Athletes, which is just as applicable to raising young chess players as it is to raising those who do physical sports.
This is an opportunity to teach any stragglers among the US kids the rest of the rules, and to respect both the rules and the authorities who organize the events and enforce the rules. Ripkin’s book would advise that the kids will innately understand this more easily than any “little league parents” might, and that such parents should be counseled by the US coaches to get past their upset and teach their kids the right lessons, rather than seek advantages that their own kids probably will be happier without. For the kids, this should be about having fun and making friends, and certainly that should be done on a fair and equal footing.
A manufacturer such as DGT could certainly install the detection network in a vinyl board. I know this based on an opinion from the engineer who developed and patented the detection system licensed to DGT that lies under the squares. Years ago, my father looked at one of my vinyl boards as I prepared to go off to a tournament, and said “that could be wired up to know where all the pieces are”, and I told him that would be a good thing, as chess computers on the market back then did not yet have such technology. Today, DGT smart boards include what he designed and patented as a result. And the inventor stands ready to help anyone who would seek to make a vinyl board with such a detection capability.
Yes, BUT FIDE has ADVOCATED the use of the MonRoi for keeping score. It seems wrong to have an FIDE regional championship event for kids and then not let them use the device that FIDE has endorsed.
Likewise, I thought the USCF was behaving very unethically when we endorsed the MonRoi (advocating it on our web site as a score keeping device) and then not allowing it to be used in our own national scholastic events. Many parents spent their money and bought the MonRoi based on the USCF’s endorsement and then were CHEATED (IMHO) until the USCF finally allowed the devices to be used in our own national tournaments (those organized by the USCF itself). The USCF couldn’t (and doesn’t, even now) force other tournament organizers to allow the MonRoi, but talking parents into buying the devices for their kids and while not allowing their use in our own tournaments?!
The difference, in this case, is that the ruling by the FIDE Americas President comes AFTER a history of allowing the MonRoi devices to be used in FIDE tournaments. It seems to be a change from prior policy that was sprung on us without warning, doesn’t it? Such changes don’t seem fair. The whole situation seems rather strange, to me.
