But that does not address the point of whether or not an organizer can forbid their usage. Or, more to the point, whether the organizer and/or arbiter/TD can prescribe that a certain scoresheet (or device) be used - and that is the sheet that is therefore required to be used. That is still an assumption on my part, based on the first post indicating a MonRoi can be used, but the moves must [also] be written down.
That aside, the powers that be may well decide that if they want to inspect the player’s scoresheet, they want the piece of paper - not to inspect the moves as recorded by the device. Whether it can display such moves just as good as the piece of paper (which I know it can,) is irrelevant.
Not to mention that if the scoresheet must be turned in, they may not have a system to receive/download from the card and print a sheet. Nor may they want the printed copy to come from a player’s (or player parent’s) laptop. In short, it’s not the organizer’s problem to get a copy of the score out of the device in a secure manner. They may be simply set up to receive a physical copy of the sheet - and nothing more. Which is fine by me.
Whether it’s a “toy” or “useful” is beside the point to me. It all comes down, as John so eloquently put it, to whether or not a player has some inalienable right to use a MonRoi. My humble opinion is no.
If the TD staff has no MonRoi hub, one can understand their desire for a traditional scoresheet. Scoresheets record the results in FIDE events and are signed by both players.
Time scrambles aside, dual scorekeeping should not be unduly burdensome. And if a time scramble comes, one stops using the MonRoi.
The technology is new enough that some allowances in international play seem appropriate.
I could not agree less. If one is going to compete on the international circuit, one had better know the rules and procedures, including who has what role.
Nobody in this thread has cited a single open international tournament outside of USA and Canada in 2008 or 2009 where the MonRoi was permitted. Did American players use the MonRoi at the World Youth in Vietnam last year? If I was to show up with a MonRoi at Corus Wijk aan Zee or the Aeroflot Open, would I be allowed to use it? And what training do the arbiters have in understanding the use and security features of the MonRoi?
From my Google search, it looks like MonRoi signed a contract with FIDE in 2006, perhaps similar to the ill-fated deal with the USCF. However, I’ve found nothing more since 2007.
According to his business card that I have in my hand, he is the Continental President. And at the top it says Confederation of Chess for America. I’m sorry for any lack of proper term when I first posted. I did not have his card at the time and was only going off what someone else said he was. Regardless of title, if he has more power than anyone else this side of the FIDE president then I’m not offbase about his power. And it was someone else that told me he answers directly to the FIDE president and Bill Hall answers to him. I do not know that for a fact.
But now the tournament is over, it’s all the past. Nothing can be done. Case closed.
At the monroi website monroi.com/chess-games/replay-chess-games.html
I believe they broadcast these tournaments or they wouldn’t be on the website.
National Junior Chess Championships, India 9/28/09
2009 Surfers Paradise Open Gold Coast, Australia 9/27/09
Ruth Coxhill Memorial, Australia 9/16/2009
NMC Cup 36th National Women B Chess Championship, India 9/15/2009
4th Kolkata Open Grandmaster Chess Tournament, India 9/10/2009
(skipping some here)
Canadian Closed 2009 , Canada 8/16/2009
2009 Gibtralter Chess Festival , Gibralter 2/5/2009
Elista FIDE Grand Prix by Russian Chess Federation 12/28/2008
2008 Chess Olympiad Open, Germany 11/25/2008
2008 World Chess Championship Match, Germany11/7/2008
A slight correction. FIDE does have ‘tournament directors’. They’re just what we call ‘tournament organizers’. This is why, when you read Geurt Gjissen’s column on Chess Cafe, you’ll find him a little confused when an American refers to a tournament director.
I see quite a few tournaments from Australia and India, but almost none from Europe. Big hmmm! By the way, Gibraltar and Hastings both have strong ties to a certain American arbiter, which might also explain how they came to use the MonRoi device.
I became curious about the Elista Grand Prix. Surely Leko, Grischuk, Kasimdzhanov and others did not use the MonRoi. How do I know? Normally, when a game is entered live, the clocks show an estimate of the time remaining. For the Elista games, the clocks don’t move at all, reading 0:00:00 all the time. Conclusion: someone simply uploaded those games after they ended for the audience to view. (Apparently the same for the 2008 Olympiad and a couple of other high profile tournaments.)
That still doesn’t answer my questions. If I go to a high profile European open tournament like Corus Wijk aan Zee or Aeroflot Open, would I be allowed to use a MonRoi device to keep score? I also asked if any American players used a MonRoi at the World Youth in Vietnam last year?
Sorry, merely the fact that FIDE certified the MonRoi doesn’t mean anything, especially if the arbiter has no clue how the device is used.
Nearly a week has passed and nobody has answered my questions. Considering that some members of the American delegation thought it was their right under FIDE rules to use the MonRoi in Mexico, I would have expected readily available proof of another scholastic event where MonRoi’s were allowed. Without such proof, it seems quite unfair to single out organizer Jorge Vega as having done anything improper.
I have seen many photos from Mar del Plata, Vung Tao and Antalya. I do not recall seeing a single MonRoi device in use, even by American players who I knew owned one. Maybe I missed one or two. Since I was not there, I cannot definitively say the MonRoi scoresheet was disallowed.
I can’t answer you question, since I don’t attend international youth events. I can only repeat my point that it makes no sense to allow the MonRoi to be used but NOT count it as a scoresheet. That’s the PURPOSE of the MonRoi, after all. I’ve never heard of an organizer saying “you can use your own scoresheet, but you can’t make a claim based on it”.
I allow in my norm events to use a manual scoresheet and the MonRoi, however I make it clear that the MonRoi is the official scoresheet and claims must be based from the MonRoi. There is a simple reason for this - the handwriting of players is atrocious and I don’t want to get into deciphering and dealing with opponents claiming each others handwriting is inaccurate, etc.
The fact that the MonRoi is authorized for use by FIDE does not mean it’s allowed at all FIDE tournaments. That is the right of the organizer to allow or disallow (unless there is a contract between FIDE and MonRoi that states all FIDE championships events have to allow the use of it regardless of what the organizer says) however the organizer should be making the announcements well in advance to make it fair to everyone and for complaints to be lodged prior to the event so there is time to review them.
Ahhhh, but that’s my point. Some guys on the FIDE Executive Board voted in 2006 to endorse the MonRoi product. Over nearly four years, the electronic scoresheet has been used at a few (limited) events. There has never been widespread use, not even close to what we see in the USA. As far as I can tell from viewing photos online, the MonRoi has never been used at a high profile event (Corus, Linares, MTel, World Cup, Olympiad). Note: games posted at the MonRoi database appear to have been uploaded after the fact.
Now put yourself in the shoes of the organizer in Mexico. Presumably they have little or no personal experience with the MonRoi. What do you think carries more weight to the organizer: the declaration by FIDE in 2006, or the lack of widespread use in other high profile international events?
Ultimately, the organizer and his TDs are responsible for the fairness of the tournament. If they are unfamiliar or uncomfortable with MonRoi’s product, then they should disallow its use. This common sense applies likewise in the USA–many TDs still refuse to allow it.
Have you ever heard of an organizer saying “Here is the official scoresheet for the tournament - use it”? That’s how such things are done at some events. That doesn’t mean that the player cannot also enter the moves into his or her hardbound scorebook, MonRoi, or anything else reasonable for their own purposes.