1.) Do byes or half point byes count for prize money? If a player comes and plays round 3 and 4 of a tournament and gets half byes for rounds 1 & 2 for a score of 1, does that count? It didn’t affect the tournament today, but it is a question I have now.
2.) Today a situation came up where we had a 3 way tie of 3.0 for a four round tournament. First place price was $35 and second place was $21, based on entry. Prize payout was 80% of the take ($70) so that came out to = $56.
So for the three way tie was for the $35 which ended up being $11.67 each while 2nd place cleared $21? Was this correct? The players are all friends so for now until we advertise and bring in more experienced people, these guys are forgiving.
Should I have just taken the entire $56 and divided it by the 3 tied for 1st people? It was based on entries and no place was guaranteed a prize.
Yes all points scored count for prizes. However, one usually doesn’t give more than 1/2 pt bye in an event - especially a 4 rounder.
The prize distribution was wrong. You add up all the prizes that the tied players win and add those together, then divide by the number of players. So if you prizes were 35 for 1st and 21 for 2nd, and you have 3 players tied, you add up 35 and 21 to get 56. Then you divide the 56 by 3 and give that to the 3 tied players. The person who finished behind them was not in 2nd. That player was in 4th. So that player would get $0 since there were only 2 prizes.
You are right - players get pretty sensitive to getting prizes wrong. I’ve made mistakes in doing prizes - probably all of us have. The solution I’ve used is to back and pay the right amount to the right players, those who got paid too much just did, and I paid for experience. Fortunately, I have not had to buy any really expensive experience so far.
The best way to understand the distribution is to realize that the three players at 3.0 were not tied for first. They were tied for first through third. Thus first prize, second prize, and (if any) third prize would be combined and split three ways. Any player with less than 3.0 would finish in fourth place, at best.
As for half-point byes, generally they count toward a player’s score for prize purposes. If you want half-point byes to count as zero for prize purposes, you should announce that fact in all pre-tournament publicity, as one Chicago organizer does.
Usually there are restrictions on half-point byes, either as to number of byes per player, and/or the specific rounds in which a bye may be requested, and/or how far in advance the bye must be requested. At the very least you should require that a half-point bye in the final round be requested before the start of the previous round.
Whatever your bye restrictions, decide on them in advance, have a notice posted at the site during registration and throughout the tournament, and enforce your restrictions uniformly and without exception. Don’t get soft-hearted (or soft-headed) and grant a half-point bye in violation of your announced restrictions just because you feel sorry for somebody. They can always take a “zero-point bye” (unplayed game) as long as they request it before you start to make the pairings.
Also, remember (except for special prizes [Jr., Sr., Female, etc.] ) that it is 1 prize per player. So if you have a prize fund with First, Second, & Top A Class and 2 A players tie for 1st & 2nd that they only get 1st & 2nd, but not also top A Class. Or 1st and Top A class if Top A class is for more money than 2nd place.
Larry S. Cohen
I mention this as I once argued for 5 minutes that me [A class then] & an expert player tied for second did not get the 2nd, Top X, & Top A prizes. After a futile 5 minutes of arguing I gave up and took the extra money.
Well, they ended up doing well.
I did 80% payout of EF take. We had 7 players. So that was $70. The site took 5% ($3.50). I set aside 5% for filing fees. 10% goes to our club fund (affiliate cost, board costs, replacements, clocks, gas money stipend when more than 2 club members go to a tournament, etc…
So I just gave the three that scored 3.0 $20 and the person who scored 1.0 $10. So they certainly weren’t cheated.
Except for actual costs of the tournament, I do not think you should be taking anything extra out for the club. Rating fees, TD fee, prizes, advertising, room rental - OK. Taking out money for gas stipend (?), future clock purchases, and other club activities - no. Those costs are unrelated to the tournament. If you make an actual profit, then the profit can go for those things. Since you are trying to build your tournament base, as much as possible should go into the prize fund. If the TD decides not to take a fee or the site is free, all the better. But to lop a portion off the top for ordinary club expenses hurts your attempt to increase entries. Regular club expenses should be dealt with through club membership fees, donations, and any extra money that comes in.
Given your entry fee and small number of entries, you should probably think about trophies instead, with free coffee and snacks and a raffled door prize or two. It sounds like the players will come just because a tournament is being offered to them; they are not so interested in prizes, per se.
He paid out the promised 80% ($56 of $70). He was simply listing what the other 20% ($14) went towards. He’s just getting started and he advertised 80% payout. I don’t see any issues.
It was very nice of the OP to pay out all of the entry fees in prizes, even though he distributed them wrong according to the Rulebook. As a result, his club, or more likely he, is forced to pay the rating fees and other real expenses. That happens sometimes when you are starting out. My point is that an organizer should not automatically figure in a profit for the club to fund its regular operations. A good general practice is to keep the tournament funds and operations separate from regular club activities. If there is a tournament profit, a portion can be put into the club’s general fund with the rest funding start up expenses for the next tournaments. When there is a problem with fewer entries, if the tournament is designed right, there will be only a small net loss or a break even result. That will minimize the impact on the club program. Too often I have seen clubs carve out a percentage up front, guaranteeing the lack of success of its tournaments, as the players get tired of seeing the based on prize funds cut in half. The spiral continues as fewer come to play which leads to more prize cuts.
This might all be too much for a small club to worry about, but given the information presented about buying clocks and giving people gas money, this little club is already thinking bigger than most other clubs. To keep it from floundering, they need to make sure they are following successful practices as outlined in several of the old Rulebooks and Handbooks. They might even find new ways to make chess successful that others can emulate.
Thanks for the replies. A lot of good advice and wisdom here. Yeah I did the payout, knowing it wasn’t correct, but being unsure wanted to error on the side of the players.
While I’m still a novice director (Directing 3 tournaments with no more than 7 players). I have contacted Steven Dillard located here in KY and hope to go to his tournaments and be an assistant for him to gain experience.
One of my goals is to a based on EF and match out of my personal money up to a certain amount.
For example perhaps 90% of EF returned as prizes with me matching EF’s up to $100.00. If say 15 people entered at $15.00 a piece, that would be $225.00 in entry fee’s. So I’d match up to $100 if that for $325.00 so then 90% of that total, or $293 (rounded up from 292.50) would be returned as various prizes.
I know I’d be losing some personal money, but I’m able to do this on occasion, and in and of itself would probably be an annual event or perhaps twice a year.
To be honest, I find directing, organizing and promoting to be as much fun as the game itself. Two new people are coming next tournament, at least they have told me they are and we has a person about an hour away come and renew his membership and play in our last tournament.
I do have a question though. If I had a U1200, a U1600, and an Open with a $10.00 entry fee and lets say I drew 15 players for $150.00. Prized distribution based on EF. How would you divide that up between the Open Section (1st or 1st & 2nd) and a prize for U1600 and U1200?
Are U1200, U1600 and Open sections? I wouldn’t have three sections for a tournament expected to draw 15 players. Unless I had a good idea of the ratings of the players likely to show up I’d announce that 90% (or whatever) of entry fees would be returned as prizes and decide on the distribution of prizes after the tournament had started and I knew the ratings of the players who had entered. When I’ve done this I’ve generally had 1st and 2nd prizes plus one or more “under” prizes, with 2nd prize greater than or equal to each “under” prize and 1st prize about twice as much as 2nd. Ideally every player should have a reasonable chance of winning a prize, but that’s not always possible.
If based on the distribution of players’ ratings you wanted to award prizes to top U1600 and U1200 as well as place prizes, with $150 in entry fees and a 90% payout for a total prize fund of $135, I’d award the prizes as follows:
This is an opinion question…you’ll probably get a lot of different views. Here’s something for discussion…no foul if you poke holes in it.
With 15 players there probably is not need for an U1200. U1600 would suffice depending on rating distribution. If you wanted to maximize prizes with a small tournament I wouldn’t have an issue going…
Open 1st = $50
Open 2nd = $30
U1600 1st = $35
U1600 2nd = $25
$140 in prices, $10 left for rating fees. TD gets a soda from the machine (only if it’s a can…if it’s a bottle you’re on your own)
Two observations. This doesn’t follow traditional prize distributions (1st is EF times X, etc.). It still feels right for incentives of a small tournament that gives back 93% of entries. Second, notice that prizes aren’t the same between open and U classes. This is so there is no doubt which prize is more valuable. If a 1300 blows up and wins clear second of the whole tournament behind an Expert, that 1300 will be U1600 1st and receive the more valuable prize of $35 (and probably leaving 2 or 3 B/A/X players to split Open 2nd).
Add: Bob’s distribution is a good start too although you could run into issues with two same-amount U1X00 prizes.
Despite the warning in the rulebook I’ve never had a problem with that. I simply explain that if a player is eligible for two prizes of the same amount (in this example top U1600 and top U1200) he gets the higher prize (top U1600).
If you expect 15 players or less, I would suggest you stick with one 4 round section. To have two sections causes a lot of headaches with pairings. The key round would then be Round 3; the last round becomes anticlimactic and likely to be a mismatch. It also squeezes your prize fund possibilities. A one section tournament is just easier to run.
Given the $150 of cash from entry fees, you can have various types of prize fund arrangements. Try to estimate the type and number of players you are likely to get. If you expect only one or two higher rated and the rest of the players U1600 rated, then I would go with a first prize, and class prizes of U1600, and an U1200. If you expect a more top heavy group, then having a first prize and a second prize, with an U1x00 class prize with a reasonable cut off number like U1500 or U1300 depending on the expected ratings. Usually, in the advertising we put the words “More as entries permit” to add prizes if more lower rated players show up. No one complains if you add more prizes. We also usually advertise and toss in a door prize or three that are randomly selected, but that is up to you. The more things you give out, no matter how small, are appreciated by the players and motivate to come back to play in your tournaments.
If you have 15 players, your rating fee will be around $9 or less if you send the event online. A 16 player event costs $9.60 online; $19.20 if you mail it in. Do you have a site fee? Did it cost some money to run off flyers? Do you want to give the TD a fee for running the event? These all should be deducted from the $150 unless you as the organizer are willing to foot the bill for these items. It looks like you have about $130-140 to distribute in prizes after expenses. One prize for every four or five people is more than fair return. Examples might be: 1st place $60, U1600 $35, U1200 $35 or 1st place $60, 2nd place $30, U1500 $40. I like to think of the prizes in a small event as getting at least the entry fee, gas money, and a meal back for playing in the tournament. If you have come close to figuring out the number of entries, you might be able to then pay out all of the based on prizes as if you guaranteed them. If more than 16 show up, you have the discretion to increase the number of prizes and put aside some money for your club.
I understood from this quote that Mr. Hamilton was planning to have just one section. For a small event, and any event with just $150 in projected entry fees counts as small, unless it is an invitational event, I think it is a mistake to plan class prizes in advance, unless you are going to publish them, which is something I can understand, but wouldn’t do. The reason is that, for example, in your last tournament you had no players over 1600 and 4/7 were below 1200. Ideally the people who are most in contention for place prizes, especially if you have more than one, shouldn’t be eligible for class prizes. For this tournament, it might have been best to do 1st, 2nd, U1200, and U1100.
So let me ask you this question. Let’s say I do a 1st place prize, second place prize and a U1400 prize of $35.00
This tournament draws 9 people. Two of them are over 1400, the other 7 are under 1400. I’ve promised 80% of Total EF which was $90, so the prize coming back out is $72 or 80%)
So, for 1st place I could give say $30, $25 for 2nd place, and $17 for U1400.
Now the U1400 doesn’t have to be a section of the tournament right? It can just be the person under 1400 rating who did the best.
How would this scenario work?
Jon 1600
Mary 1550
Tom 1399
Jane 1380
Tim 1250
Mike 1200
Tiffany 1185
Billy 1120
Donovan 1100
Jon scores 4 in a four round tournament and gets the first place prize of $30. Jane scores 3.5 and scores second place she’s under 1400 but she gets the more valuable of the two prizes she’s eligible for, so she get the $25.00.
Mary (over 1400) came in third place and Mike came in 4th place.
What becomes of the $17 left over? Does it go to the next highest U1400?
Jon 1600 4.0
Jane 1380 3.5
Mary 1550 3.0
Mike 1200 2.5
All other players score 2.0 or less
Then your prize distribution is correct: Jon (1st), $30; Jane (2nd), $25; Mary, play better chess ; Mike (top U1400), $17.
Let’s kick it up a notch. Time for an advanced course
Question 1:
Assume the prizes are now 1st $25, 2nd $20, 3rd $10, top under 1400 $17 (total prize fund $72). And let’s assume we have the following:
Jon 1600 4.0
Jane 1380 3.5
Mike 1200 3.0
Mary 1550 2.5
Tim 1250 2.0
All others score 1.5 or less
What is the correct prize distribution, and why?
Question 2:
Now, let’s suppose the prize fund is 1st $25, 2nd $20, 3rd $17, top under 1400 $10. We’ll change Mary’s score from 2.5 to 3.0:
Jon 1600 4.0
Jane 1380 3.5
Mike 1200 3.0
Mary 1550 3.0
All others score 2.5 or less
What is the correct prize distribution, and why?
Question 3:
Finally, let’s suppose the prize fund is (as in question 1) 1st $25, 2nd $20, 3rd $10, top under 1400 $17. The results are as above (Mike and Mary tied with 3.0 each). What is the correct prize distribution, and why?
I would humbly suggest allowing Mr. Hamilton to take a crack at answering before others jump in.
; Mike (top U1400), $17.