rules questions

Running Chess Tournaments
1

I have a rules question, and, I would like to know if USCF and FIDE have different rules in this topic:

Let’s say white has a knight on g5 and Queen on b3. Black has a King on h8, Rook on e8, Queen on d8, and, just for kicks, a pawn on f7. Black sees Nxf7 is a strong threat, and “decides” to play Rf8. Instead, he plays Kh8-f8 (???!???) which is a VERY bad move, and also illegal. White responds Qxf7 mate!

I have several questions:

  1. If black notices after Qxf7 that he illegally played Kf8, and gets the director, what happens?
  2. If black shakes hands and signs the scoresheets, and then realizes and gets the director what happens?
  3. If black notices 20-30 minutes after the result is posted, and finds the opponent, and the opponent agrees, is it too late? (You can change the amount of time to 40 min, 80 min, or whatever, and tell me if that changes anything).

One of the reasons I ask, is that, in FIDE events, if the arbiter makes a ruling you don’t like, you can appeal. But I am wondering, if such an appeal is successful, and let’s say the game needs to continue, but opponent is gone, and maybe next round is starting, than what happens? For example, let’s say #1 above happens. And let’s say the proper ruling is to go back before the illegal Kf8 and simply move the king legally (as a friend on mine believes is obvious). But, let’s say that is the “proper” ruling, but the arbiter says “No you got mated, you lose.” Then, let’s say you appeal, and to get the appeals committee together, explain the facts, and get a ruling takes 2-3 hours (as I have seen in the past, unfortunately)… then they rule the game should continue with a legal move instead of Kf8, but opponent is long gone and next round starts soon. ----- You know, you could make up a similar scenario where this could happen in you don’t like my scenario.

So, I guess I have a lot of questions, but I am not stating them well. I guess I foresee a situation, where it is likely, the game should go back to a certain point, and one player is just gone thinking the game has ended.

A friend of mine who is an FM and is on appeals committees in World Youth events, sees odd rulings often, they are appealed, and overturned, and usually this results in someone else winning or a draw instead of a win, but I wonder what happens when an appeal (FIDE or USCF) results in the game going back to a certain point, and the players continue, but one player cannot be located!?

I guess I am confusing everyone, but that will just make the answers more interesting. :slight_smile:

Ben

2

This is the kind of question nobody will want to touch, and that includes me.

It reminds me of a question written to a columnist in a state magazine, perhaps New Jersey, a couple of decades ago. It was a TD-question type of column.

The question ran something like this:

In a time scramble with both flags hanging, one player made an illegal move, leaving his king in check. The other player didn’t notice, and himself played an illegal move, leaving his own king in check. This continued for several moves, some of them illegal (such as moving a bishop horizontally). Finally, both players shouted, in unison, “FLAG !!” But the spectators all reported that both flags were still up. Somebody pointed toward the clock, accidentally knocking it to the floor. When the clock was picked up, both flags were down. My question is this: What is the best move for black on move 10 of the Blackmar Diemer gambit?

Bill Smythe

3

The answer to the last question is obvious. Fizbin!

As every TD will attest, more information is required before one can make a decision. The need for the information is so that one can gain the time to either figure out the right answer or find the quickest way out of the room.

In the list of hypotheticals, for 1) one would expect the right solution to be that the game will be reset before the illegal moves occurred. That is likely to be impossible absent a complete score, witnesses, or someone taking a picture with a phone. The problem is how to get back to a position w/o illegal moves, or likely before the last illegal move. The TD needs some evidence to go on.

In hypotheticals 2) and 3), the game appears to be over. The player by signing the scoresheets agrees to the listed result. 3) is little different except that a player has left the playing area. The game is still over. I think that the player who appeals should lose under USCF rules, both the appeal and the game. However, this might be differently determined under USCF scholastic rules. If FIDE rules allow something different on appeal, we have another kettle of monkeys to deal with as one player, after receiving notice of the result by the TD of the win, is going to be really aggrieved when he comes back later to the venue if an appeals committee overturns the original TD’s ruling. Expect an international incident depending on the countries of the players involved.

4

I’ve moved this topic from All Things Chess to Running Chess Tournaments.

5

The TD will first ask white if he agrees that black made the illegal move. If white agrees, the TD will rule that the illegal move be taken back. If white doesn’t agree, then Black will need to prove the illegal move in some way, such as scoresheet, or via an impartial witness.

The game is over.

Doesn’t change a thing; the game is over.

I’m not sure this is correct, but I’m not a FIDE Arbiter, so others will need to chime in.

6

(rest deleted for space)

I try to never answer hypotheticals - especially when they are as convoluted as this.

My general experience has been that posts such as Mr. Finegold’s are derived from actual experiences. If Mr. Finegold would be so kind as to relate the specifics of the situation(s) that gave rise to his post, I think it would be much easier to answer his questions. (Names can be omitted or changed, if desired, but aside from that, as much detail as possible would be appreciated.)

7

For USCF, pay close attention to the first two sentences of 13A. Also, remember that even if your hand has released a piece an illegal move is not considered determined until it is also considered completed by pressing the clock.

The player who checkmates the opponent’s king, providing the mating move is legal, wins the game. This immediately ends the game.

8

Well, that was not helpful.

One person is confused. (Why post the answer “I am not going to answer?”). Really?
One refuses to answer, and wants a real story (none exists, sorry).
One said we go back before illegal move and continue.
One says game is over.

That was MUCH worse than I could have imagined. This is why I post here once a year or so… I forget that the responses are not helpful.

Shame on me.

Sigh. :confused:

Ben

9

Quote of the day:

“Successful people ask better questions, and as a result, they get better answers.” – Tony Robbins

10

Many TDs dislike answering hypothetical questions because they don’t have all of the information even if the person asking thinks all the information is there. There was a thread not too long ago where somebody (an ANTD or NTD) complained about a real tournament’s pairings, gave a lot of information, and asked how the TD could have made such an obvious error when pairing it. With pretty much everybody responding agreeing that the pairings were clearly wrong, one more bit of information was added in response to a question (information not considered critical by the person originally posting) that changed the entire situation and made the TD’s pairing not merely acceptible, but probably the best option.

I generally limit my answering of hypotheticals to questions that have clear answers in the rulebook, which is why I explicitly cited those sentences in 13A (sentences that many TDs overlook because it is something that comes up so rarely).

Sorry you don’t find answers with rules citations helpful.

11

Also relevant is the TD tip in 11A which was discussed here:
Clarification of illegal move penalties
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20626

So the answer to question 1 depends upon which interpretation of the Td tip is correct. I.e. whether white’s move was legal or illegal. I agree with the interpretation that white’s move was legal and so mate ends the game.

12

Hey, Ben2600, little details matter, whether it is in a legal case or a decision by a TD. Applications of the rules are based on presented evidence. If you don’t like the answers, it may be because of the assumptions you are drawing before presenting the scant details you posted. As much as possible, TDs try to take each case as it comes. Crazy things happen at tournaments that require rules interpretations and TD discretion based on common sense and precedents. Even with the evidence, TDs may differ in the weight they give certain items. Sometimes there is no perfect answer that satisfies everyone; that seems to be the norm, which is why rules are always tinkered with over time.

13

Here is my two cents worth…

USCF Perspective:
As has been pointed out, rule 13A states “The player who checkmates the opponent’s king, providing the mating move is legal, wins the game.” Rule 11A begins with “If, during a game, it is found that one of either player’s last ten moves was illegal…” Well, since checkmate ended the game then you are no longer “during a game”. It seems pretty clear that the game would be over in this instance. (Also note that if the game was in a sudden death portion then rule 11D1c would make this situation extremely clear.)

FIDE Perspective:
FIDE’s rules are very similar. Rule 7.5a starts with “If during a game it is found that an illegal move has been completed…” and Rule 5.1a says “The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7.” There is also rule 8.7, “At the conclusion of the game both players shall sign both scoresheets, indicating the result of the game. Even if incorrect, this result shall stand, unless the arbiter decides otherwise.”

I don’t think in either instance an appeal would be successful to allow the game to go back and be continued.

14

It’s a shame our GMs, who are sometimes tasked with instructing their students in the play of tournaments, don’t know the rules.

Anyway, Ben, what don’t you understand, as far as my answers to you? I’ll try to help.

15

GM Finegold happens to also be a Senior TD, the same level as you currently are I believe Terry.

Admittedly, the rules as to what happens with this particular game seem to be pretty clear cut. The rules as to what would happen should an arbiter/TD decide that a game should continue and the opponent has left the building and cannot be found are much less clear and should very much be open to discussion.

16

I sometimes have outbursts that I later regret, as seen in the preface to my reply to Ben.

I agree, Chris, that the rules should be open for discussion for all of us. It would be insane to suggest otherwise. This situation should, however, be apparent, especially to a Senior TD, though I haven’t looked to see just how much experience Ben has as a Senior TD.

As to your hypothetical, bolded above, would you agree that the absent player would be subject to losing the game, and that a TD would be within the rules to forfeit that player? Absent further information (such as, why the player is absent), I, as a TD, and a player, would expect him to be subject to such penalty.

Again, Ben, if you should see this, I would be happy to help you with questions you may have relative to my response.

17

I do not think the answer to this question is as clear cut as you suggest. Is a player obligated to stay for an amount of time after a game has finished, just in case his opponent appeals a decision or finds something awry after looking at the game later? There are a lot of variables to consider in such circumstances and each instance will require its own treatment. This is where arbiter/TD common sense and discretion plays a big part, for items not necessarily covered specifically by the rules.

18

I am, indeed suggesting, that a player is not obligated to stay for an amount of time after a game has finished. I do believe that it’s incumbent upon a winning, or drawing player to make sure that the result sheet correctly indicates the result.

Wouldn’t common sense dictate that once a scoresheet has been signed, the result written thereon is agreed upon, and a player wouldn’t need to worry about what happens in the future? A resignation (which is what happens when the loser signs) immediately ends the game.

Now, in the situation which is in the OP of this thread, after some thought, I have to modify my answer to question #1. The rules are clear that a Checkmate immediately ends the game. There is nothing in the rules that state that White is required to make an illegal move claim. It states only that the mating move be one which is legal, and given the position on the board, the mating move is legal. On the other hand, there’s nothing in the rules that prohibit a player from calling attention to his own illegal move. Regardless, I believe that the mate is valid.

The remainder of the questions in the OP seems clearly stated in the rules. That is that if a player agrees to a result, that result stands.