An interesting situation occurred in the World Open. Late in the round, a TD is watching one of the few remaining games where neither player is keeping score. A player tries to claim a 3x repetition. A dispute arises if he has to first request the TD to watch or can the TD use moves seen to rule on the claim. This also comes up in the 50 move draw rule. Opinions?
Regards, Ernie
There are distinct differences between the two rules. For the 50 move rule, a player can stop his clock and ask a TD to count the moves. The TD will then decide if he or a deputy will do the count. For a three fold repetition claim in the last five minutes of sudden death, the player’s claim can be supported by an independent witness or a TD. The 50 move procedure is prior to the action that leads to the claim of a draw, the three fold repetition ruling only validates a claim.
For a three fold repetition claim to be upheld, neither the TD, nor an independent witness need to be asked in advanced for the claim to be validated. Note, if the procedure called for a prior claim then the reference to an independent witness would be to a “deputy” appointed by the TD.
There are several rulings that can be made based on the observation of an independent witness, e.g., touch move, flag down before mate, etc, three fold repetition is just one of those cases.
Hi Grant:
Glad you mentioned the 50 move rule. This also came up as part of the discussion. Several years past, Carol J. told me that if I were watching a game with a possible 50 move claim, I should start the count without a request and use those moves if a claim or count request was made. I originally did not agree with her interpretation of the rule. That said, I now agree. Why? The rule is written anticipating a claim. It does not consider a TD watching in advance of the count request. The rule does not prohibit a count in advance. Additionally, it allows the use of the score sheet. It also seems fair that if 50 moves have been made and can be verified by the TD, the claim should be granted. That said, Wayne Clark and I have a disagreement of how to do this in practice. Consider, you have been watching and have counted x moves toward the claim and a player requests you to count. I feel you need to announce your count at this time. I feel this is important so that either player can challenge the TDs count then and is also necessary so the players can challenge any subsequent count. As there is no way for either player to know when the TD started counting, how can either make a knowledgeable claim without this information. That said, if x were something like 48 moves, it might be considered giving assistance to the player contemplating the claim. Seeing as one option is to place a clock with a move counter on the game, I don’t see a technical problem with announcing the starting count.
Regards, Ernie
This seems contrary to the rule as written. While 14F4 (a) does state that the move count should begin by crediting moves already made, the qualifier is that they must be written on the scoresheet of the player intending to claim. Also, 14F4 (c) states that after the count by the director or deputy begins, neither player has a right to know the count until 50 moves are reached.
Out of curiosity what section was this in?
I realize this, this was the basis of Wayne’s objection. That said, if the player does not know when you started the count, how does he know when 50 moves are completed? I believe that the rule did not consider the TD starting the count before the request.
Regards, Ernie
Hi Sevan:
U2400
Regards, Ernie
Anyone check the FIDE rules since this was a FIDE rated section?