To Deduct or Not Deduct, That is ....

Running Chess Tournaments
1

In another thread, I was surpised to see quotes like “There are those of us who feel that the logic behind subtracting X minues from the clock for a game with X seconds delay was flawed in the first place” and “an even better reason for not recommending a 5-minute deduction is truth in advertising.”

I like having the option.

I like keeping rounds on time. If a tournament has the rounds scheduled very tightly, then time delay without shortening the basic time control will cause rounds to be delayed.

For instance, a G/30 tournament with rounds at 9:00, 10:15, and 11:30 would normally have 15 minutes between rounds to produce pairings. A game going to 60 moves with both players using all their time will end in 70 instead of 60 minutes, leavin only 5 minutes to do the pairings.

On the other hand, if rounds are not tightly scheduled, I like to give the full basic time control. If a G/25 t/d5 game only goes 30 moves, then the game is over in 55 minutes.

What do others think?

-Kevin Hyde

2

That is the problem with time delay, it adds time to the round. Every twelve moves, it adds one minute for both players. If you have G/60 (t/d 5), it would be equal to 12 moves = G/61, 24 moves = G/24, 36 moves = G/63, 48 moves = G/64, 60 moves = G/65, 72 moves = G/66, 84 moves = G/67, 96 moves = G/68.

Chessplayers do like to see the best chessplayers in the tournament play out the game. If it was a G/60 (t/d 5), both players are in the final seconds after they have past 100 moves. That is nice, the problem is they have gone past 16 minutes more time than the chessplayers that used an analog clock.

It is not so much a problem for the director, as the director can take care of the pairings some what before the last game. It is more of a problem for the rest of the chessplayers, even if they are analog players or time delay players. Not all games, with time delay or not are going to the final seconds. Having time delay, it does leave a huge gap between games for a number of players. It is nice to have some time for rest, than there is to much time between rounds that drag on: than it makes the players more tired.

Do know chessplayers that love time delay, do know players that hate time delay. The players that love time delay, they do not come to my G/60 events. Chessplayers that love time delay, they only like to play in G/90 or slower. Looking at my tournaments over the last year, over 90% of the chessplayers bring an analog clock. Out of that, only one regular that always use time delay.

It does not matter if the local tournament sets the G/30 at G/25 (t/d 5) or G/30 (t/d 5), or G/60 at G/55 (t/d 5) or G/60 (t/d 5). If it is just a local weekend tournament, the chessplayers that love time delay are not going to come. Could get a few, they could be in the majority if the crop of chessplayers are in their youth or 20’s. For the strong chessplayers that want time delay, G/30 or G/60 is just to fast of a time control for them.

3

I hate having an adjustment deducted from my time. My games almost never go to 60 moves or beyond, so I don’t usually get the announced amount of time.

I prefer longer time controls, so I always feel cheated if my opponent has a digital clock and deducts the adjustment.

It just seems more honest to say 40/115 if that’s what you mean instead of saying 40/2, but then telling the players to set the clocks for the lesser time.

4

TANSTAAFL has the best argument against subtracting the delay amount, most games don’t go 60 moves, so I’m not getting the full advertised amount of time.

Conversely, suppose two players play a 200 move game with game/30+5 seconds. That game could conceivable last over 90 minutes.

To me the whole concept of delay/increment is antithetical to one of the major reasons for sudden death time controls in the first place: making the round schedule more deterministic.

Sudden death time controls also encourage organizers to schedule their rounds too close together. I know I’ve run events at Game/30 with rounds at 1PM, 2PM, 3PM and 4PM, I doubt I’m the only one. (Of course these were scholastic events where the typical game was over in 15 minutes anyway.)

I don’t do that anymore, as I get older I find I need more time between rounds, whether my players do or not. :slight_smile:

5

The only ethical problem I have with G/60 (t/d 5), it is not a true dual rated game. Dual rated games are between G/30 - G/60. The rules about duel ratings does not bring up time delay, only about the time control. If the players have G/60 (t/d 5), it can be dual rated. If I have analog players have G/61, it cannot be dual rated as they have sixty-one minutes. If it is G/60 (t/d 5), if it was for only one move, the player has 60:05 minutes. If it is G/60 (t/d 5), if it was for twelve moves, the player has sixty-one. It does not matter if the player use all the time from the clock. The problem is, how much total time does the player have.

6

DUAL

G/60 with a 5 second delay isn’t 60:05, it’s still 60 minutes.

Actually it should be 55 minutes with a 5 second delay.

7

If the site is appropriate, you might want to consider having a scheduled start time for the first round and then run the remaining rounds on an “as available” basis. That allows you to finish quicker if the games don’t go the full length, and still have enough time between rounds for a TD to not be overly rushed.
In 5-round K-3 events with a G/30 time control it has been common in this area to start the first round at 9 AM and and start the awards ceremony by 2 PM (our quickest was starting the awards ceremony around 12:30 PM).
K-5 and K-8 sections take longer, but there is usually at least one quick round that allows you to finish quicker than with reasonably scheduled round times.

The drawback of “as-available” round times is that not necessarily knowing when the next round will start keeps players on-site rather than being able to go out for lunch, but the parents here accept that drawback in exchange for a quicker finish and for getting the games in before the players succumb to exhaustion.

The site has to be one that either allows you to use a PA that covers all the areas of the building that players are expected to be when between rounds, or one that permits runners to be able to cover the appropriate areas with verbal announcements.

Also, if there are usually one-day tournaments with as-available round times (200-450 players here with 35-40% in K-3), then having scheduled round times for a 2-day state championship (600-850 players with 35-40% in K-3) helps make that tournament more special. We’ve used scheduled times for the championship even when the site would allow as-available round times. In any case, it is more likely that a state championship round will have a game go the full length, so there is less opportunity to shave minutes off the schedule.

8

Tried that, both the players and parents wanted the round times to be more fixed. Next year I think I’m going to run them at 12:00, 1:15, 2:30, 3:45 and 5:00. Still not a lot of time between rounds, but hopefully I can get a few more minutes of only mild bedlam between rounds. :slight_smile:

9

There is a theoretical problem hare arising from the wording of 13D: "The player who arrives at the chessboard more than one hour late for the beginning of the game or arrives after the expiration of the first or only time control period, whichever comes first, (emphasis mine) loses the game. Does this mean that if five minutes is deducted for time-delay, the opponent forfeits after 56 minutes? So it would seem. Personally, I avoid the problem by telling the players never to deduct time.

10

What if your opponent does not arrive for a G/60 (t/d 5). First the five seconds tick away, than the sixty minutes tick away. Would I win the game, if I stop the clock with 4 seconds left on a G/60 (t/d 5), or would I have to show no time on a G/60 (t/d 5)? If I have to show no time, it would take 60:05 minutes to win a forfeited game.

11

Forfeit is one hour after the start of the round or when the flag falls, whichever comes first. So, one hour from the time the TD said “start your clocks,” you are entitled to a forfeit win if the opponent isn’t there, no matter what the clock shows. As a practical matter this in unlikely to make any difference, since I know only one or two players (sigh) who habitually show up almost an hout late. But, as I pointed out above, there could be a legalistic quibble if time is deducted.

12

You did not answer my question. If the clock is set for time delay, with a time control of game sixty. Can I stop my clock with four seconds left on the clock, than get a forfeit win? Or do I have to let my opponent use up the five second time delay, plus the sixty minutes on the clock?

If I have to let the clock flag fall, the forfeit win will take 60:05 hours. With time delay, it does take more than one hour to win with a forfeit game. It takes an extra five seconds more than one hour.

13

He did answer your question, you are just not listening. :slight_smile:

14

If it is just one hour, with a G/60 (t/d 5), I can stop the clock with 5 seconds left on the clock. Than win a forfeit game. As my opponent did get the five second delay, and used 59:55 minutes on the clock. As 5 seconds and 59:55 minutes equal one hour.

What if my opponent comes into the room, makes a move, than press the clock. At that time I could be in the skittles room. If my opponent lets the 5 second delay, than the 60 minutes go down to zero. My opponent used 60:05 minutes from the clock, I used 60:00 minutes from the clock, but left 5 seconds.

Who forfeited the game?

15

That’s an entirely different question from a no-show forfeit. (How could you have used 60 minutes if your opponent never started his clock?)

Exactly how could the situation you are describing arise? Both clocks should have started with 60:00. When one of them reaches zero, the player loses. If you are saying that the players get more than 60 minutes for G/60 – well, of course they do. That’s almost a definition of time-delay. If you are claiming that giving (some) players more than 60 minutes for a G/60 is unfair – well, it’s an interesting abstract argument, but that horse left the barn a long time ago.

The only other way I can interpret your hypothetical is that player B comes to the board with a few seconds remaining and makes a move, after which player A doesn’t notice this for an hour. (And neither of them informs the TD, and the TD doesn’t notice anything.) While this is not quite impossible, it is also not the kind of thing for which you can write a rule. The TD who lets it get that far will have to resolve it as best he can.

Later: It occurs to me that one other possible interpretation is that you are seriously asking what would happen if a player showed up and made a move in the interval between the expiration of the hour at 60:00 and the fall of the flag at 60:05. The short and practical answer is that this is not going to happen (how many people do you know who would decline to play with one hour versus five seconds?). The longer version (which might possibly arise with a real time control like 40/2) is that the TD would have to determine whether the late player entered the “radius of forfeiture” before or after the hour ran out.

16

Yes, I have expereinced this with a local TD. I have had students come back with lunch and get only one bite before the’re told they have to go play a game. I don’t like that and I can imagine a hungry 7th grader not liking it, either. When I asked about it, I was told the parents prefer it because they get done quicker and the parents don’t have to hang around so much. Silly me, I thought the tournament was for the players, not the parents.

As for a player getting exhausted, that’s why there is ususally time between rounds for a player to relax and recuperate. I’d expect a player to get exhausted when they have to run from one game to the next.

In the situation I’m in, there is no PA system or way of notifying other players the game is about to begin, especially if they have gone offsite (which they mostly have to do) for lunch. It turns out to be my job as coach to notify the TD they are leaving and may be late for the next round. He’s been good about letting them start late, but then that tends to defeat the whole purpose, doesn’t it?

Radishes

17

You have the option. However, the point is that deducting the 5 minutes is now deprecated (and has been for many years). The default procedure is to not deduct time when using a time-delay clock. If you plan to deduct time, you should note this in pre-event advertising.