I believe it is not in the best interest of chess, especially scholastic chess to allow a very expensive device, which discourages kids from learning chess notation, and gives the user of the device a distinct, even if it is small, advantage in scorekeeping. If one player uses a Monroi, or a similar device, and the other person keeps score with pen and paper, The person using the Monroi only taps two places on the screen, while the other person must form at leat two characters to write their move. People might disagree about how MUCH an advantage it is, but clearly there is at least SOME time savings in using the Monroi, over the oldfashioned manual pen and paper method. In inner city schools, where parent struggle just to afford a chess set and clock, it seems unfair that a kid from an affluent neighborhood is allowed to purchase, for about $400 a distinct time advantage for each move. Some possible remedies might be to allow the Monroi user to have one second less delay time, and be required to keep score for as long as the other player does. Another possible “fix” maybe to loan the other player such a device, or assign a helper to record the game for the two players. If it is not practical to assign a helper or offer a loaner ( at $400 ea., this seems quite plausible) then having both players keep score with pen and paper seems reasonable. Another possible fix may be to allow the player who did not spend $400 on a Monroi unit tosimply start with 2 min less time per 30 min of time in the time control, and simply not be required to write moves.
NOW I want to bring up another issue. In scholastic tournaments there are sometimes hundreds of participants who might be using from just one, to many rooms at a hotel, as playing hall(s). There is no practical way to bar participants and spectators from freely entering and exiting multiple times during a game in progress. Many events broadcast the games, while they are in progress, onto the internet. It is quite possible for people to have Rybka, Fritz and some other strong chess engines on the same laptop as monroi.com. This just opens the door wide for cheating possibilities. ALSO the Monroi DOES NOT prevent all types of illegal moves. I noticed that a DGT board costs much less than a Monroi unit AND keeps score of both players moves to the last move even if someone is short of time! The DGT does allow all types of illegal moves. I think we should consider again if we really want to create a $400 hurdle that people ave to jump through to get an advantage that some common sense rules changes could off-set.
I would like to hear from you. Chris Goldthorpe admin@chesschesschess.com
Hmm… whenever I have played against somebody using a MonRoi, I find it actually takes them longer to input their move than it takes me to write it down. I wouldn’t personally use a MonRoi, simply because I am quick at writing down moves and would rather keep my $400. But I understand why some choose to use one, especially if they aren’t sure about the notation. True, I realize that knowing the notation is part of the rules but I’m sure we’ve all played against people (especially kids) who write down the wrong notation, write black’s move down in the white space, and so on. I’m sure using MonRoi also makes importing a game to the computer a lot easier!
I do think we should be careful before giving kids and beginners a MonRoi because it could impair their ability to learn proper notation. You never know when that electronic gadget is going to break down and they are forced to start scribblin’!
You should put this in another thread to make sure it gets attention.
As for the MonRoi, the marketing goop seems to suggest that it makes post-game analysis easier. I suppose that’s possible. I can’t see why that would be worth 400 dollars but hey.
Wireless broadcast of chess moves beyond the confines of the playing hall is in principle a Fritz cheater’s dream.
But the principle goes well beyond MonRoi.
Without MonRoi being involved, the recent Topalov-Kamsky moves were electronically transmitted over the Web in nearly real-time, without the commonly recommended 20 minute delay.
Ideally all chess games would be digitized. The implied love of paper and pencil chess game scores is backward facing. Whether a 6 yr old chess player learns chess notation this week, or is delayed several weeks, seems a trivial concern.
This has been thoroughly discussed more than once. I suggest searching the forums for the previous discussions. There are many reasons to use (and allow) the MonRoi. I wouldn’t use one myself (I’ve tried it), but I would recommend it under certain circumstances.
For one obvious example, very young chess players that haven’t learned to WRITE yet, will be able to take notation – something they couldn’t do, otherwise.
It’s a gadget. The rich kids always get the gadgets. They always had nicer baseball gloves on the sandlot too but that didn’t make them into all-stars.
All the time saved on the MonRoi doesn’t help the kid who hangs his Queen. 30 extra seconds doesn’t enable a take-back.
Why is it that I’ve never heard a titled player say anything good OR bad about a MonRoi? The top players I’ve directed for at the Dallas Chess Club all play with pen/paper, and as a technological parallel, they play with analogs just as much as digitals.
To your quote above…
a] There are MANY practical ways to bar spectators from a scholastic tournament. The most effective is announcing, “No parents or spectators are allowed in the room while games are under play.” Simple, effective, and I’ve never had a parent argue after they realized that I actually listen to their concerns (whether I solve it to their desire is a different matter). So that argument is out.
b] It’s obvious when a kid leaves the room too many times. That and it helps to announce before the tournament starts that bathroom breaks are allowed but they must inform a TD.
A parent or coach worried about MonRois and unfair advantages should consider focusing more attention on chess education. Or…as an old coach once announced…“Fancy basketball shoes don’t put points on the board.”
First off I’ll say I disagree. Kids are different in their progression of learning notation and how to just plain old write. I would rather have the kid have the full notation of the game available to replay it later with their parent or coach than some scribble.
If you think it’s such an advantage try using it in stressful positions when people begin to tap the screen too hard or place their palm on it and can’t register their moves properly or at all. With paper and pen they can just scribble away anything to ‘notate’ the move.
Ever tried replaying a game from a written scoresheet. It’s like reading ancient Sumarian most of the time.
Ah the age old cheating concern. Nothing stops some from coming and looking at the game, going outside and putting it into a computer and then passing the info to the player when they go to a bathroom break or walking around.
Cheating is dealt with with diligent players, TD’s, coaches, and parents.
You’re right it doesn’t. IT’S NOT SUPPOSED TO. It only will if you turn ‘Chess Rules’ on. That’s a requirement of an electronic scoresheet set forth by the committee that tests electronic scoresheets, otherwise it’s construed as getting outside assistance.
And a DGT is more difficult to lug around. You think a TD, organizer, or parent is going to do that? Most adult players won’t. I can’t remember if the DGT runs off of batteries or if a plug is needed but if a plug is needed then that becomes an issue. Is the organizer required to supply that?
Sure it costs less than 2 MonRoi PCM’s but what if I’m the player with the black pieces and I have a regulation set, I get to choose the equipment to use, not you Mr. White Pieces with the DGT stuff. So you then put away your DGT and I bust out my MonRoi to record my moves.
There is no hurdle created. A MonRoi is not required. It’s a nice to have. It’s nice to have a $200 pair of Nike name brand sneakers, but a $20 pair from the warehouse club does the job too.
I love my Mon Roi. In the past two years I’ve played over 800+ rated games. I’ve been able to download them to my computer and then use Fritz to help me in my analysis. I personally find it’s quicker to keep score with it then pen and paper. I still make notation errors with the unit because it does allow illegal moves to be input. It’s pretty easy to fix unless I’ve skipped a move pair.
Even if you have chess rules on, it still allows you to leave or move a king into check. It just won’t allow you to move your rook like a bishop which I have done.
Coaches appreciate being able read their student’s scoresheet afterwards. However I do think kids should learn to write the moves also.
What is the difference between the “rich kids” having this device and having access to expensive coaches and teachers? It is just a fact of life that the rich are going to have an advantage.
On the other hand the Monroi may not be the advantage some might think. It will automatically record your game, but I find it is better for me to input my games in (to a computer) after the game because it forces me to actually go over my game. When it is automatic I tend to never look at it again.
I worked the floor for a large scholastic tournament this weekend, and at one point I observed two kids conferring after their game. The kid with the hand written scoresheet was helping the kid with the monroi get his notation correct.
The fancy gadget doesn’t help any more than the paper one when you forget to notation a few moves.
When my older daughter started playing, mon rois were not as ubiquitous as they are today so it wasn’t an option and frankly, I’m glad. Yes, she struggled to learn to notate in first grade but I firmly believe that one of the non-chess benefits of scholastic chess for little kids is that in the process of learning to notate, they improve their handwriting skills and also learn graphing skills and map reading skills. Now that my younger daughter is in first grade, the process of learning to notate is one that we can point to and say “see, at the beginning of the year, you could only notate 2 moves and now you can notate 44 moves.” It makes her feel a sense of accomplishment. I think that our older daughter gets something out of entering her games into chess base. As a previous poster noted, it forces her to go over the game again and think about it. It may be that their chess improvement would have been more rapid if they had the games correctly entered in mon rois to review but I think they would have lost out on a lot of other benefits. After the last Nationals where we saw a lot of kids with mon rois, we asked our older daughter if she wanted one and she said no, that she preferred to notate and enter her games. But I’m sure we’ll revisit it if she continues to play during middle school and high school when her time to enter games may be more limited.
I wonder if you could do a study of 100 random kids using mon rois and 100 random kids notating to compare chess progression and also chess longevity (i.e. how long kids in each group stick with chess).
On the pro-mon roi side, we enjoy being able to watch the live games and to replay the games from the big tournaments like Foxwoods.
I don’t know that you could get a good sampling. From my observation, the kids with the Monrois have them because they’re very interested in chess and tend to be somewhat stronger players.
I am a strong MonRoi supporter for the following reasons:
A. It allows for instant broadcast of tournaments and players to a viewing audience
thus increasing the exposure of chess.
B. It allows the opportunity for quicker and better scorekeeping which in addition
to instant analysis by chess engines allows players to quickly review their games
looking fo improvements. This is a major advantage esp to the emerging scholastic
player who plays many tournaments per week. Their parents using devices such as
the MonRoi can now have thier children’s games analyzed quicker and with better
efficiency than having to hand enter each move for each game-quite a problem esp.
for multi-kid families who are very active in chess. Quite a few of the top scholastic
players use the MonRoi for this reason. These kids are the future of USA Chess-
and MonRoi is a wonderful tool to aid in their improvement.
As for the disadvantages mentioned: It is very difficult anyway for an economically
depressed player to progress in that not only are MonRois helpful, but coaching and
esp., Tutors, are essential. In addition, these players need to be active playing in
a variety of tournaments, and on a regular basis. The EF for these tournaments alone
is not cheap. When the cost of the MonRoi is compared with the other costs of
development of top scholastic players, it becomes a great investment.
The main cause of cheating is a lack of character. Regardless of equipment, there
will always be those with a lack of character. Removing them, not eliminating
legal aids for those vitally interested in the improvement of chess is the key.
Rob Jones
Senior TD, and Chess Dad
Denton Texas
Maybe it just hasn’t caught on in NYC because I still see lots of 2000 plus scholastic players at local tournaments and the Marshall with notation pads. Maybe if they had switched to Mon Roi, they would be 2300 by now.
Some of the kids in NYC that I have seen using them, are totally clueless. One scholastic event I was directing a kid kept holding in his hand close to his chest. I kept telling him he had to leave it on the table. One round he managed to wipe out most of his notation because somehow it reset when he held it next to his chest. A kid like that needs to learn how to keep score the old fashioned way first.
Of the 23 kids in our team room, I think maybe one or two have them. One of them is over 2000 and has earned the right to use one and the other moves too fast and I tend to think that the mon roi is not helping in that regard. I did see on another NY coach’s blog that he doesn’t recommend them until kids are 1800 or higher (or something like that).
How many of you really expect a 4-8 year old to annotate properly?? Good Luck!!
At least with the Mon Roi, this has a shot at happening!! As a tutor and chess teacher,
it is extremely helpful if the young pupils games are actually readable. Nothing warms
my heart like a printed MonRoi schore sheet.
Some of the kids in NYC that I have seen using them, are totally clueless. One scholastic event I was directing a kid kept holding in his hand close to his chest. I kept telling him he had to leave it on the table. One round he managed to wipe out most of his notation because somehow it reset when he held it next to his chest. A kid like that needs to learn how to keep score the old fashioned way first.