Situation. Player A flag is down. Player B says your down. Player A says I claim draw, Insufficient losing chances. Player B has no material other than King. Player A has 2 Queens. What is the ruling on holding a player to his claim. Due to 14H4 Players with fallen flag may not claim. So no rule for what a player claims under this situation. Other than conclude that Rule 13C a says: ( if player B says down he has to have mating material to win on time.) So then player A is not correct in his claim by rule 14H4, but by Rule 13C a is what needed to be the claim. Director was not asked to rule. Should player A get the draw?
The player mis-understood the rule.
He thought he needed to claim14H.
Actually 14E1 is the applicable rule and that did not require the player to make the claim prior to the flag falling.
In this particular case it is clear what the player was trying to claim even if it was not exactingly worded. The game is a draw.
So if someone makes claim of a draw by repeating the position and is wrong, there is a penalty. So why have rule 14H if your claims are is-understood.
Seems that there might need to have some things cleared up. Why quote a rule in the first place? Just say draw in all situations and can be said to be misunderstood.
The director needs to deal with player B calling the flag first. That is when the TD denies the claim and declares the game a draw due to insufficient material. So, no matter what A says is his claim the game is already over (draw via B’s claim and the TD ruling resulting from that claim). B can certainly point out there is not enough material for A to claim a win, but that is much different than a claim.
TDs get to decide if the claim was mis-spoken or legit. TDs certainly can tell A that his claim does not apply in this situation. At that point A can still point to the correct rule, or word his claim differently. Besides if the TD deals with B’s claim properly the contest will be declared a draw before the TD has to deal with A’s claim/wording.
As for changing the rules–it has been said over and over on this forum how to get that done. The Reader’s Digest version: Get your Delegate to make a motion to change any rule you feel could use improvement or contact the chair of the Rules Committee.
Rule 14H doesn’t apply to this situation. The player cannot have a penalty, because the game is already over. The flag is down, the game is ended. Because player B has no mating material, its a draw.
If there were a penalty, it would be to give player B two minutes added to B’s clock. How would that change the result?
Note the comment above: Actually 14E1 is the applicable rule and that did not require the player to make the claim prior to the flag falling.
14H only applies to situations BEFORE the flag has fallen.
A player is not FORCED to use 14H. That he did so after the game was over was an error and has no consequence.
If the opponent’s flag falls and is called and confirmed, the game is over. If the player has mating material the opponent loses, otherwise the opponent draws.
So let me ask this, what would be the call if player B has a Rook pawn and the flag falls for player A. Does the game end due to Rule: 13C time forfeit?
A rook pawn is enough to win on time (though a 14H claim prior to the flag fall would have been advisable - assuming is was even possible with the prerequisite that the clock was not set with delay or increment).
Per 14E3 two knights is a draw (unless the two knights actually have a forced win - no claiming 14E just before the lone remaining knight delivers smothered mate).
The 14E claims can be made regardless of whether or not there was delay and/or increment on the clock.
Note that this can also lead to a time crunch strategy - if way ahead in material and many moves from mate, consider first eliminating mating material before pursuing the win.
I think there would not have any questions raised if the players would have requested a analog clock at the 2 min mark in the game and player A would have had enough time to mate.
I’m guessing that you meant a request for a digital clock with time delay. Such a request is potentially only done in conjunction with handling an insufficient losing chances claim (which doubles as a draw offer). The inferior side could have simply ended the game immediately by accepting that draw offer.
In this situation, it’s simple. Black says “you’re down”. TD says “draw”. Game over. There’s no need for white to say anything, and if he does, it’s irrelevant. You can’t win on time with a lone king (14E, among others).
In most other situations, though, if a player’s time runs out and his opponent calls it, the first player cannot then make any claims. 14E is a rare exception, one of the few claims that can still be made after a time expiration.
In fact, 14E doesn’t even require a claim. If the conditions of 14E are satisfied, the game is drawn, period.
In the story, player A ran out of time but had 2 Queens. If he ran out of time with an Analog clock he would still have the insufficient losing chances giving him a Draw when he, player A, ran out of time.
I assume from your question that player B was playing on the delay, while player A was using up his non-delay time. Otherwise, asking for an Analog clock would do nothing.
The answer is that he cannot request an Analog over a Delay capable clock when he is down to 2 minutes. The delay clock is the preferred clock.
Ditto: He can not ask for a swap of clocks. Once the game has started (each player having made a move) then there is no “asking to swap clocks” unless the game clock is defective. During the game 14H allows the TD to swap clocks (analog to delay) after the claim is made and the opponent has rejected the automatic draw offer. Before the game, clock swaps are allowed (even for a late player–under the revised rules) if the swap places a “more standard” clock on the game. The player of the black pieces only now gets to choose which clock to use, before the game starts, if both his and his opponent’s clock are equally standard for the time control of the contest.
Besides which, unless a clock is defective, a player cannot request a different clock.
A player can make a claim of insufficient losing chances. This has several possible results:
It is a de facto draw offer, the opponent could accept.
The TD could rule it a draw
The TD could rule the claim incorrect.
The TD could decide the claim is unclear and if no delay clock is available either invite a later claim or just observe.
The TD could decide the claim is unclear and if a delay clock is available the TD (and only the TD) could choose to put a delay capable clock on the game and continue to watch progress. See 14H2a below.
14H says that a player with less than 2 minutes on his clock may claim a draw by insufficient losing chances. One of the TD’s options, after this claim, is to rule that it is unclear whether the claim in correct or not, and to reduce the claimant’s time by half and give each player the standard delay for the tournament (typically 5 seconds). Note the following: if A had claimed insufficient losing chances, he is claiming a draw and, like every other draw claim, that should be treated first as a draw offer and B has every right to accept. Second, there is no reason why A (or B, for that matter) can’t win the game after the clock has been changed. Third, there is no rule that allows a player to ask for the clock to be changed unless the clock is defective. Fourth, your flag must be up to make a 14H claim. This is irrelevant to the situation discussed here, since B didn’t have mating material.
