Determined move

[Bob_McAdams]

@BobMessenger

@Bob McAdams

So the rule was, correctly, changed to read:

9B. Capturing. In the case of a legal capture (7C) the move is determined with no possibility of change when the player has deliberately touched both his or her own piece and the opponent’s piece (10C) and completed when that player presses the clock (5H). See also 9G, Determined and completed moves.

What’s missing in this rule is a requirement to execute the move on the board,
although that’s implied by the phrase “in the case of a legal capture” and the reference to rule 7C. Just as rule 9C says a castling move is “determined with no possibility of change when the player’s hand has released the king, which has moved two squares toward a rook, and completed when that player, having legally transferred the rook to its new square, presses the clock”, the revised rule in the 5th edition should have been something like:

9B. Capturing. In the case of a legal capture (7C) the move is determined with no possibility of change when the player has deliberately touched both his or her own piece and the opponent’s piece (10C) and completed when that player, having removed the captured piece from the chessboard and released the capturing piece on its new square, presses the clock (5H). See also 9G, Determined and completed moves.

The other problem with the revised rule is its effect on rule 9E, which says that in the case of a legal move which produces checkmate or stalemate, “the move is determined with no possibility of change upon release as described in 9A, 9B, 9C, or 9D, whichever applies.” The original 4th edition version of rule 9B talked about a piece being released but the 5th edition rule does not, at least directly. It can be inferred by 9B’s reference to 7C.

No disagreement!

@Bob McAdams

The issue which the TD tips for rules 13A and 14A are addressing is at what point in the execution of a checkmate or stalemate a fallen flag becomes irrelevant. I suspect that all it intended to say was that the player who executes a move checkmating or stalemating his opponent before his flag falls doesn’t lose on time, even if he doesn’t hit his button before the flag falls. But what it says, in the case where the checkmating or stalemating move is castling or a capture, is that the player does not actually need to have finished executing the move before the flag falls, as long as he has proceeded far enough with the move for it to have been determined, nor does he really need to finish executing it at all!

Note that the current version of rule 9B references rule 7C, which clearly states that the captured piece needs to be removed from the board. But since the TD tips for rules 13A and 14A, as worded, say that anything that happens after determination of these moves is irrelevant, then this would mean that checkmating and stalemating captures and castles do not need to be fully executed.

No, because according to rule 9E a move which produces or stalemate is determined “upon release” of a piece. Effectively, rule 9E redefines the term “determined” to mean executed instead of decided for moves which produce checkmate or stalemate.

Well, what rule 9E actually says is “upon release as described in 9A, 9B, 9C, or 9D, whichever applies.” And in this case, the relevant rule is 9B, which does not describe any release of a piece, except perhaps by inference in its reference to rule 7C (if you use your imagination).

Rule 9E really seems to be redefining “completion” for the case of checkmate and stalemate to be synonymous with “determination” but in the process ignores the fact that for capturing and castling there is normally more distinction between these terms than just the pressing of the clock. I’d submit that it is currently ambiguous about whether a player who is checkmating or stalemating via a capture loses if his flag falls after he has touched both pieces but before he has released his piece on its new square. And I’d submit that it is ambiguous about whether a player who is checkmating or stalemating via a castle loses if his flag falls after he has released the king on its new square but before he has placed the rook on the crossed square.

Bob

[BobMessenger]

@Bob McAdams

I’d submit that it is currently ambiguous about whether a player who is checkmating or stalemating via a capture loses if his flag falls after he has touched both pieces but before he has released his piece on its new square.

I don’t think it’s ambiguous because you can’t ignore the words “upon release” in 9E. And even if other TDs interpret the rule differently, at worst it’s a potential problem rather than a rule which has resulted in an actual problem in a game.

@Bob McAdams

And I’d submit that it is ambiguous about whether a player who is checkmating or stalemating via a castle loses if his flag falls after he has released the king on its new square but before he has placed the rook on the crossed square.

Here I think one can make the case that, given the way 9C is worded, releasing the king on c1 or g1 satisfies the “upon release” requirement in 9E, so the game is technically over once the player releases his hand from the king. It’s unlikely that this would make a difference in an actual game, though (how many games are decided by a player castling and producing checkmate or stalemate just as his flag is falling?)

[Brian_Mottershead]

Bob, the problem is that 9B defines determination pretty clearly, and the definition does not correspond to your interpretation, or to anybody’s idea of what is required to determine captures. You’re hanging your hat on the 9E reference to “release” in what seems a vain attempt to find something to do with “release” hiding between the lines in 9B. 9E refers to the “release as defined in 9A, 9B, 9C, and 9D”. That means that there must be a “release” somewhere in 9B, says you. It may be like a black cat on a moonless night, and we just can’t see it. But it is in there somewhere, 9E promises us.

But all 9B has is touching of two pieces. What is that all about, and what does that have to do with “release”? All this just underscores that Rule 9 in general, and 9B in particular, is rather mangled in the 5th Edition. I’ll have to get the kids at the MACA tournaments to do their final checkmating captures by touching pieces – just to aggravate Bob.

[BobMessenger]

@Brian Mottershead

Bob, the problem is that 9B defines determination pretty clearly, and the definition does not correspond to your interpretation, or to anybody’s idea of what is required to determine captures. You’re hanging your hat on the 9E reference to “release” in what seems a vain attempt to find something to do with “release” hiding between the lines in 9B. 9E refers to the “release as defined in 9A, 9B, 9C, and 9D”. That means that there must be a “release” somewhere in 9B, says you. It may be like a black cat on a moonless night, and we just can’t see it. But it is in there somewhere, 9E promises us.

But all 9B has is touching of two pieces. What is that all about, and what does that have to do with “release”? All this just underscores that Rule 9 in general, and 9B in particular, is rather mangled in the 5th Edition. I’ll have to get the kids at the MACA tournaments to do their final checkmating captures by touching pieces – just to aggravate Bob.

Brian, it’s true that 9B says the move is determined when two pieces are touched. However, 9E redefines what “determined” means in the specific case of a move which produces checkmate or stalemate. Therefore, the statement in 9B that the move is determined when both pieces are touched is irrelevant when we’re talking about a move which produces checkmate or stalemate.

I agree that it’s a problem that 9E says the move is determined “upon release as described in 9A, 9B, 9C, 9D, whichever applies”, but 9B doesn’t say anything about a piece being released. In order to interpret 9E in a way that gives meaning to the words “upon release”, we have to find a place in the rules which does talk about pieces being released. Rule 9A says:

9A. Transfer of a piece to a vacant square. In the case of the legal transfer of a piece to a vacant square, the move (7A, 7B, 7C) is determined with no possibility of change when the player’s hand has released the piece, and completed when that player presses the clock (5H).

Although 9A is talking about the transfer of a piece to a vacant square, it references 7C which is talking about captures. For a capture which results in checkmate or stalemate, the move is determined and completed upon release as described in 9A, which references 7C: release of the capturing piece.

[Steve_Immitt]

@Brian Mottershead

Bob, the problem is that 9B defines determination pretty clearly, and the definition does not correspond to your interpretation, or to anybody’s idea of what is required to determine captures. You’re hanging your hat on the 9E reference to “release” in what seems a vain attempt to find something to do with “release” hiding between the lines in 9B. 9E refers to the “release as defined in 9A, 9B, 9C, and 9D”. That means that there must be a “release” somewhere in 9B, says you. It may be like a black cat on a moonless night, and we just can’t see it. But it is in there somewhere, 9E promises us.

But all 9B has is touching of two pieces. What is that all about, and what does that have to do with “release”? All this just underscores that Rule 9 in general, and 9B in particular, is rather mangled in the 5th Edition. I’ll have to get the kids at the MACA tournaments to do their final checkmating captures by touching pieces – just to aggravate Bob.

One could always appeal the ruling of all TDs who disallowed inferred checkmates. At $25 a pop (if the TDCC were so inclined), USCF might make enough to hire some more floor walkers for the Nationals.