FIDE Rating Rule - No More Than 3 Games A Day

Running Chess Tournaments
1

I know that we exclude games that don’t meet the FIDE time control requirements from our FIDE reports, but I believe we are including games that should not be FIDE rated.

For example, in most of the major events, they allow a shorter schedule which merges in a later round, usually in the evening. Take the upcoming National Chess Congress (http://www.chesstour.com/ncc07.htm) in November. It has a 2-day schedule that merges in round 4 for a game that would normally meet the FIDE requirements in terms of the time control. However, FIDE rating requirements state that there should be no more than 3 rounds a day (note it does not say more than 3 “FIDE ratable” rounds per day).

Therefore I believe those games involving players that used the “shorter” schedule should be excluded from being FIDE ratable in the future, which in theory could affect those players that have played in the “normal” schedule as their game would not be ratable if their opponent is playing his 4th, 5th or 6th game that day. I think our current method is to exclude certain “rounds” from being rated, however in this respect some games in the round could be rated and some couldn’t.

Here is a really bad, but possible, example from something that could happen at this weekend’s Miami Open. A player “Bob” plays in the 5-day schedule in which norms are available as all 9 rounds are (so he thought) FIDE ratable. However, Bob meets a player in round 5 that merged in players from the 3-day schedule who had already played 4 games that day. Bob has now played in a game that is not ratable because his opponent had played more than 3 games that day. Bob goes on to score a norm but eventually finds out he only played 8 FIDE ratable games. Bob is pretty angry!

I’m guessing this is something that has gone reasonably ignored, and probably didn’t even get thought about as the time controls are within FIDE’s rating requirements. However, there is more to a game being FIDE rated than just the time control!

Maybe the schedules for major events should no longer merge in the evening? Also, how do we submit rating reports that had rounds which contain certain games that were ratable and others that weren’t?

Chris Bird

2

My understanding of how FIDE interprets Rule B.3.1, see fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=B0203,
is that if there are more than 3 rounds in a day or if the total scheduled playing time for those rounds exceeds 12 hours then NONE of those games can be FIDE rated. (Any other interpretation would offer too much opportunity for monkey business and would violate the spirit of the rule.)

Multiple schedules and the like (including allowing half point byes on request) are considered ‘vulgar Americanisms’ by many people within FIDE.

There’s a field in the online submission form for you to indicate if any rounds are not FIDE ratable, or to indicate which games in some rounds are not ratable (because of multiple schedules, etc.)

The new online editing form for the updated TD/Affiliate Support Area is going to have two sets of check boxes to deal with this, one at the top of each round column to indicate whether that entire round is FIDE ratable, and another one for for each game (probably next to the ‘color’ assignment field that is also being added to that form) to indicate whether that specific game is FIDE ratable. These check boxes will only be present if the section is coded as FIDE rated.

3

Ok, here is a recent example from the Continental Open, 2007.

Alex Cherniack played in the 2-day schedule (http://www.chesstour.com/ae-con07.htm) and in round 4 he played David Harris (http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblPlr.php?200708127351-001-11096239). This was Alex’s 4th game that day, but only David’s 2nd as he played in the 3-day schedule. According to FIDE rating regulations, this game should not be FIDE rated.

However, looking at the FIDE crosstable (http://www.fide.com/ratings/treport.phtml?event16=8661) and checking Alex’s results (http://www.fide.com/ratings/tourney.phtml?field1=2007606) you can clearly see that it was submitted for FIDE rating and the game against David is included.

I think people assume that because the time control meets the FIDE requirement, e.g. 40/2 SD/1, then the whole round can be FIDE rated, whereas actually any games involving players who played in the 2-day schedule should have been excluded from that particular round’s FIDE ratable games. However, any games in that round involving players who wholly played in the 4-day or 3-day schedule would still have counted as FIDE rated as this would have only been their 2nd game of the day.

Chris Bird

4

That seems like a strained interpretation of the rule. If Alex’s first three games were not FIDE-ratable, then from FIDE’s point of view they did not exist. They meant no more than if he had played three skittles games that day. So why shouldn’t the fourth game be rateable?

5

Exactly for the reason you stated, it is his fourth game, not his first. FIDE states “no more than 3 Games a Day,” not “no more than 3 FIDE ratable games a day.” This fact could easily be checked by FIDE, just the same as I did and if it involved a norm, as it possibly could in a 9 round tournament, then there could be problems.

You might as well state that a player could play 5 games a day but if only 3 of them were against FIDE rated players, and hence they were the only ones sent in for rating, then it would be ok because FIDE only knows about the 3 games and therefore those games meet the rating requirements. Just because games are not submitted to FIDE does not mean that they do not count towards the rating requirements.

Chris Bird

6

I don’t think your interpretation makes much sense. That rule is not a limit on the number of games a player is allowed to play in one day; it’s a limit on the number of games he can be compelled to play in one day. If he chose to play in a side tournament in the morning, FIDE would have no say in the matter. The quick-schedule games should be viewed in the same way. Note that we are talking about a policy question here, since it seems pretty clear that FIDE currently does not interpret the rule in the way you suggest.

7

The USCF is dependent upon the TD to indicate which rounds or specific games were not FIDE ratable.

I think Walter Brown is out of the office this week, but he’s our FIDE Ratings Officer and thus probably the person best qualified to answer the question at this point.

John’s reasoning, that games which were not played at a FIDE ratable time control do not exist as far as FIDE is concerned (their purpose in effect being to ‘seed’ players into the FIDE ratable games), seems reasonable to me, but I don’t know the legislative intent behind FIDE regulation B.3.1.

If Don Schultz or Carol Jarecki are following this thread, maybe they know more of the history behind this regulation.

8

I wouldn’t particularly object if FIDE decided to adopt Chris’s interpretation of the rule, but there would be significant implementation problems, especially if re-entries are involved.

9

If I recall correctly, at the National Open we make it clear to the players in the Open section that in order to be FIDE rated, that have to play the 3-day schedule and re-entries into the Open section are not allowed. Since Walter Browne is the backroom TD of that section and Carol Jarecki is the floor chief of that tournament I assume it’s because of a rule like this.

  • Enrique
10

I strongly doubt that not allowing re-entries in the Open section had anything to do with FIDE ratings. It certainly didn’t when Bill adopted that policy six or seven years ago, and as far as I can tell, other organizers have simply copied his format. (If Bill told his players to jump off a bridge …) And, even if you accept Chris’s reasoning, I don’t quite see how you can justify not rating games played on the last day.

11

Well you couldn’t re-enter, take a bye in the first round (or two), play the long schedule, and then use those bye’s for a norm.

However the answer to Chris’s question will be quite interesting indeed.

–Sevan

12

True, but my point was that figuring out exactly how many games each person played on each day is going to be non-trivial. You might, for example, enter the 4-day, then re-enter the 3-day, then re-enter the 2-day, which then merges with the 4-day. Which of his games should be submitted for FIDE-rating? “As I was going to St. Ives, I met a man with seven wives …”

13

Yes, it can certainly be non-trivial, but these are problems entirely of the organizer’s own making when designing the event, so I’m afraid I have little sympathy in that respect if the design of the event flouts or attempts to finagle around FIDE regulation B.3.1.

The organizer/TD/Chief Arbiter is required to identify and submit only those games ratable under FIDE regulations. It would be useful to have some illustrative examples here, but I don’t think the USCF can do that without some guidance from FIDE.

14

I sent the question Chris posted to Stewart Reuben for his opinion on the matter since Stewart is well versed in FIDE policies, etc.

I expect to have a response from him quickly as he checks emails at strange hours of the night :slight_smile: I’m willing to bet I’ll have an answer by the time I get back from taking my daughter to her private ice-skating lessons.

–Sevan

15

Here’s the question I posed to Stewart (plz chime in people if you think my examples didn’t make sense):

Dear Stewart:

A question for you.

The FIDE guidelines state that there can be no more than 3 rounds per day and no more than 12 hours of player per day.

Can you look at the following scenario’s and opine on which would get FIDE rated.

Scenario 1

  1. 1 schedule of play
  2. Rds 1 - 3 on Day 1; Rds 4-5 on Day 2
  3. Rd 1 = G/60, Rds 2 thru 5 G/90 + 30/sec increment

Scenario 2

  1. 2 schedules of play
  2. Schedule 1 = Rds 1 and 2 on Day 1; Rds 3 and 4 on Day 2; Rds 5 and 6 on Day 3
  3. Schedule 1 Time control = 40/120 SD/60
  4. Schedule 2 = Rds 1 thru 4 on Day 1; Rds 5 and 6 on Day 2
  5. Schedule 2 Time Control = G/45 for Rds 1,2, 3; 40/120 SD/60 for Rds 4 - 6
  6. Both schedules merge in Rd 3

Now I know that based on the rating of players states what the minimum time control is so undoubtably that the G/60 in Scenario 1 and the G/45 in Scenario 2 would not be rated for an Open section that would have Master class players.

But does the rule of FIDE rating mean, no more than 3 FIDE rateable games with a 12 hour maximum total. Or 3 games period (regardless of being rateable by FIDE or not) with a 12 hour maximum total?

Given the multiple schedule options that exist in US tournaments this is a question that has been raised on the USCF Discussion Forums but no one has come forward to answer (everyone is ‘guessing’ and some of the respondants should even be doing that).

Thanks,

–Sevan

Here’s his response (told ya I’d have it quick!):

Dear Sevan,
Let there be no doubt, the way in which certain tournaments are played in the US should not be FIDE Rated. B.02.
2.1 Play must take place according to the FIDE Laws of Chess.

The USCF Rules are not identical to the FIDE Laws of Chess. Bill Goichberg is of the opinion that they are superior. I would have some sympathy with that viewpoint, if he had actually read the Laws and if he or any other US Official had ever tried to get the FIDE Laws amended to improve them and bring them into line with the US Rules.

For a game to be FIDE Rated, no more than 3 rounds per day are permitted and no more than 12 hours of play. Your question about what happens for games that are not FIDE Rated is meaningless. Such games are outside the FIDE Regulations. They should be played according to the FIDE Laws of Chess, but that is unimportant.

Your scenario 1 is nonsense for FIDE Rating. The idea of having games in the same tournament at a different rate of play is ludicrous. Games where even just one player has a rating 2200 requires a minimum of 2 hours thinking time, if the game were to go for 60 moves.

Scenario 2 is incomprehensible to me. You have not explained it properly. But Scenario 2, Schedule 2 is clearly not permissible for FIDE Rating.

In my opinion the multiple schedule options that exist in US tournaments, the use of the USCF Rules rather than FIDE Laws and that few games played are much more than rapidplay, work to the disadvantage of the development of US players.

For title norms, the FIDE Laws are even more stringent. Then no more than two games a day are allowed.

In my opinion, anybody signing a FIDE title norm report without noting the true rate of play, is acting fraudulently, albeit possibly with the best of intentions. Look at fide.com/official/handbook/N … %20IT1.pdf.
The same view can be expressed about a rating report. See fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=B0217.

That FIDE officials have turned a blind eye to these US tournaments is wrong.

Eric Schiller IA, IO, FM persuaded the USCF General Meeting to go over to the FIDE Laws of Chess. Within the year this decision had been reversed.

In some ways US Chess is the most Third World of all the FIDE Federations. It is so sad that American chessplayers when they first come onto the international scene are so handicapped.
Stewart Reuben IA, IO, CM, US Master (when I pay my dues).

Yes, you may publish this.

16

Stewart Ruben is one of those who considers many USCF tournament practices ‘vulgar Americanisms’, so his answer is not surprising, and appears to support the most restrictive definition of B.3.1. What he had to say in Torino about ‘requesting 1/2 point byes’ would not be permitted under the AUG here.

I don’t think he’s quite correct with regards to Eric Schiller, though.

17

So give us the cleaned up version of the 1/2 pt bye topic.

Hopefully a USCF official wasn’t trying to get 1/2 pt bye’s allowed for norms.

–Sevan

18

Unplayed games can’t be included in the computations for a FIDE norm.

Stewart’s comments, which I think were made during a discussion of the ‘Dutch’ pairing system, expressed his sheer disgust over the USCF practice of allowing people to request byes (half point or otherwise.)

It doesn’t appear he has a high regard for re-entries or multiple schedule events, either. (Can’t say I blame him on those, though.)

19

Don’t you mean “Rds 1 thru 4 on Day 2; Rds 5 and 6 on Day 3”?

Maybe that’s why Stewart Reuben couldn’t figure it out.

Bill Smythe

20 
 Well I guess that settles it then.  All USCF tournaments which advertise "FIDE" but which use USCF rules instead of FIDE Rules (World Open, US Open, National Open, Labor Day tournaments, etc., etc.) are not allowed to be FIDE-rated-- case closed.   And just when FIDE was about to realize a windfall in higer rating fees, too.  It's surprising that FIDE didn't just get the idea to charge "non-FIDE-Rules" tournaments an even higher rating fee.