FIDE time control in USCF tournaments

If someone ran a USCF tournament using a time control with a 30-second increment (say, G/90 + 30 seconds per move), would the players be obligated to keep score throughought the game, even when they had less than 5 minutes left?

FIDE rule 8.4 says: “If a player has less than five minutes left on his clock and does not have additional time of 30 seconds or more added with each move, then he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1.”

(8.1 is the rule requiring players to keep score.) I don’t think the equivalent USCF rule mentions the possibility of increment. If the players would not be obligated to always keep score under USCF rules, would requiring them to do so be a permissible variation, if it were announced in all pre-event publicity?

Thanks,
Ed

Yes. Note, however, that the FIDE rules were written on the assumption that the organizer would be supplying equipment. Trying to use a variation like this for an open swiss is asking for trouble.

Thanks for the reply. Is that “yes, they’d be required to keep score”, or “yes, requiring them to keep score is a permiitted variation”?

Can one restrict entry to those with proper equipment? Could one say in the ads “players must supply an increment-capable clock”, or offer a reduced entry fee to players with the right clocks?

I understand your concern about whether such an event is practical. Assume for the sake of discussion that the organizer is willing to risk a low turnout in order to run this type of event; I’m concerned mostly with what’s permitted by the rules.

(Here in New York, I’d say at least three-quarters of the players at any given tournament have Chronos (mostly), DGT, Saitek, or Excalibur clocks, all of which are increment-capable (I believe). Most of the rest don’t bring clocks at all.)

Again, thanks for the response.

–Ed

I vote yes, you can have a 30-second increment instead of a 5-second delay, and yes, you can require score-keeping throughout, and yes, both of these must be announced in all pre-tournament publicity.

You need to have a plan for what to do when people show up without increment-capable clocks. Your solution of restricting entry to those with proper equipment sounds workable, though it might reduce your turnout. Another possibility is to have a different time control for older equipment. For example, instead of game/90, inc/30 those games could be played at game/90, SD/30. (I guess you’d have to waive the score-keeping requirement in the last 5 minutes, though.)

I’m pretty sure all of the clocks you mention are increment-capable, except for older Excalibur models which are only delay-capable (newer Excaliburs are increment-capable). Also, some older Chronos models may be capable of increment only with single controls like game/90, not with dual controls like 40/90, SD/30.

Maybe it’s time to revive the “Pave the Way for Increment” conversation, now buried deep in this Tournament Organization thread.

Bill Smythe

Any of these would be “permitted” variations. The question is how elaborate a rules sheet you want to produce (and fit on your flyer). Assuming you just want to say “FIDE increment procedure used” or some such, you would have to use the FIDE rule as written, meaning players would have to keep score.

My point about the clocks was that a significant number of players (I won’t say “most,” since I don’t want to get involved in number chopping) either don’t have an increment-capable clock or have no idea how to set it for a 30-second Fischer add-on. (An awful lot of people who use the Chronos never do anything except use the pre-sets.) Playing with a 30-second Fischer add-on is sufficiently different from a “normal” (analog) clock that mixing them in the same tournament would probably be a bad idea.

First time posting. I am expecting to become involved as an organizer/ director in my area. I wish to bring increment time controls boldly to the fore in our tourneys. I know some will say that with increments you cannot start the rounds at a prescribed time. I have my views, but I would like your input from either experience, or as educated guesses. Another consideration I wish to bring to the popular chess arena, as opposed to grand master play. Is that we shorten the time controls some what. 40/2 followed by 20/1 and SD/30 is absurd these days. I say this even though 15 to 20 years ago I did play in such events in Reno.

Okay, finally the question: An organizer likes to promote his tourneys as SD/120 or game in 2hrs…What do you believe would be the best alternative to this using increments of maybe 30 secs per move?

I will defer to your suggestions, but to get you thinking here is what I would propose:

Start with 60 mins on clocks/ 30 seconds incremented after each move. After move 40 an aditional 10 minutes added on that move only… the outcome 40 moves in 80 minutes. 80 moves by 110 minutes and most games will be done by the two hours… No ugly time scramble… And a short w.c. break or endgame orientaion time is available after 40 moves.

Another reasonable time control that I have seen recently around the country is 30/90 and SD/60… I.e. game over in 2 1/2 hrs per side… What do you think would be a reasonable alternative t/c approximating that using increments of 30 seconds per move.

I would very much appreciate responses from several experienced sources… thanks…

If I understand what you want is a 40/60 + 30in SD/10 + 30in with an adjournment at move 40? First off each player will have 40 moves in 60 minutes. Each player will also have 40 moves with the 30 second increment (Fischer increment), that would be 20 minutes. That would be a total of 80 minutes, so 40/60 + 30in = G/80.

The second time control is a sudden death with Fischer increment SD/10 + 30in. There is no way an organizer can come up with the final time. One of the reasons why Fischer increment is not accepted, as the game could be 100 moves or 200 moves, so the sudden death can last 2 or 3 hours.

Having Fischer increment is fine, if you only want one round per-day. Having Fischer increment is not a rational idea. Any organizer would go broke with an open registration with Fischer increment. If you want a closed tournament it could work, you would need a very strong field of players with a strong prize fund. Fischer increments are fine for FIDE events, as they are closed tournaments with a strong field of players.

30/90 = 30/75 +30in

75 minutes + 30 moves times 30 seconds = 90 minutes. As 30 seconds is half a minute. With every two moves would be one full minute, half of 30 moves is 15 minutes. This would take care of the first time control.

With Fischer increments in the second time control, the time it will take with SD/60 + 30in can take hours. Example, since the players have made the first time control, the amount of moves was 30. If the second time control last 120 moves (total in game 150 moves), that would be 120 minutes just in increment. As a move for white and black would add one full minute just in increment. Having 120 minutes equals 2 hours, with the given of 60 minutes standard time for both sides, the sudden death can last 4 hours.

If you have 30/75 +30in SD/60 + 30in with 150 moves = total time of the game can last 7 hours. This would be a problem, if you have more than one round per-day. It would force the organizer to have some of the games have some type of adjournments. The tournament should not have one game having 150 moves, it is just a theory of a game going into 150 moves.

Adjournment games are not ideal, as pairing problems can happen if you force a adjournment just to get into the next round. Adjournament games are not ideal, as it force the players to meet at a time not ideal for both parties. Even FIDE is walking away from adjournments, as it is a problem for the organizers and the players.

It is a nice idea, having long time controls like you want have not been in style since the 1970’s.

Thanks for the replies so far. I think you have to read my comments in the initial set-up a little more closely.

I am sorry, but I don’t know how to use the quote functions here that would help me clarify references in this long-winded reply.

I do not want long time controls. I am just trying to come up with reasonable approximations (alternatives) to the two cases: SD/120 and 30/90, SD/60. And I want to schedule two rounds a day, and get the players onto their next important activity…

In my first proposal I did not use the word adjounment anywhere. But have you not heard of the player who is afraid to go to the bathroom during the game because of feeling he/she has to watch the clock? That is partially what that 10 minutes increment could be used for, or he/she could just take a breath and analyze the engame a little deeper.

If I had continued further with my example another 20 moves would have to be completed in 10 minutes, so that would mean 100 moves by the first 2 hrs. Where I am calling upon your experience is that you think about this: Realistically what % of games go to 100 moves? Consider that the tournament setting is not that of a major tourney with thousands of dollars at stake.

So perhaps second round of the day would be scheduled to start five hours after the the start of the first game. This schedule would be inconvenienced only by some very stubborn players, for they would have the opportunity of offering a draw to conserve their energy for the next round. Your experience with real players playing for modest prizes is what I’d like you to share here…

Also, in the first time control, the initial starting time allowance could be shorter by 10 or 20 minutes maybe… but this makes the first 40 moves arrive in 70 or 60 minutes respectively…Would this be too unpopular? But it would surely make the total game between reasonable players finish within the 120 minutes per player that I am trying use as a guide.

And that is just for the first timing case… What about better proposals for the second case…30/90,SD/60.?

Lets try a base-line scale of Fischer increment with sixty-moves, as sixty-moves is the standard for time adjustments on a delay clock.

60 moves + 30 increment = 60 minutes, each player 30 minutes.
60 moves + 25 increment = 50 minutes, each player 25 minutes.
60 moves + 20 increment = 40 minutes, each player 20 minutes.
60 moves + 15 increment = 30 minutes, each player 15 minutes.
60 moves + 10 increment = 20 minutes, each player 10 minutes.
60 moves + 5 increment = 10 minutes, each player 5 minutes.

If you want a G/120 changed over into increment.

G/120 = G/90 + 30in
G/120 = G/95 + 25in
G/120 = G/100 + 20in
G/120 = G/105 + 15in
G/120 = G/110 + 10in
G/120 = G/115 + 5in

If you want a 30/90 SD/60 changed over into increment.

30/90 SD/60 = 30/60 + 30in SD/60 + 30in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/65 + 25in SD/60 + 25in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/70 + 20in SD/60 + 20in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/75 + 15in SD/60 + 15in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/80 + 10in SD/60 + 10in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/85 + 5in SD/60 + 5in

If any of the games go past 60-moves, the Fischer clock will keep adding time to the clock. If you want the 30 second increment, every move past 60 will add one whole minute to the clock. If the game goes 90-moves, the next round can be off by 30-minutes. If you are going to use Fischer increments, the next round should start with a 45 minute or one hour break between the rounds.

If I get you right, you want the second time control as a ten minute break? That would be a nice novelty, problem is you would need a Fischer increment clock with three time controls. The Chronos clock can do this, but the Chronos only goes into the second or other time controls after the first or other time controls are over. You could set the clock to be 30/60 + 30in 0/10 + 0in SD/60 + 30in, there is a problem with this. I could want my 10 minutes used in the first time control or the third time control. If I want to play during my 10 minutes, I would not get any increment time. If you grant me increment time in the 10 minutes, my opponent would want to use the 10 minutes during that time control. Then every move I make during this time control, I would gain more time then my opponent. Be like everyone else, if you need to go to the bathroom, do it on your own time. We are no longer in grade school and need to hold it till the bell rings.

Mr Forsythe,

Thanks for replying … I still haven’t figured out the quotes usage but you were illustrating options on the 30/90 ,SD/60 case… and you wrote:

"If you want a 30/90 SD/60 changed over into increment.

30/90 SD/60 = 30/60 + 30in SD/60 + 30in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/65 + 25in SD/60 + 25in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/70 + 20in SD/60 + 20in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/75 + 15in SD/60 + 15in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/80 + 10in SD/60 + 10in
30/90 SD/60 = 30/85 + 5in SD/60 + 5in"

Why do you start all the secondary time controls with 60 minutes? Why not try to design it so that a reasonable game is over in another hour for each player.

I am thinking that it would be something in the order of 10 minutes added on for each player at the end of the move 30. Then the just increments per move from there on …I understand all the math… What I am needing is insight as to the frequency with which the games last maybe a hundred moves or so…1% or less?

It always reasonable to have a break between rounds maybe for food, exercise, skittles, gabbing, etc… This extra time can be judiciously used to finish the rare extra long games.

Hey, Mr. Forsythe,

You posted one while I wasn’t looking… Great… Here’s what I see as the increment replacement for: 30/90, SD/60…

75/30 for the first 30 moves, 10/30 for the rest of the game…

Things mean different things under the two systems: 30/90 means 30 moves in 90 minutes…and 75/30 means start with 75 minutes and add 30 seconds after each move…

and 100 moves would have been made before 2 hours and 15 minutes have elapsed, which is even sooner than the original goal so maybe a another few minutes could be added to the secondary time period.
Now maybe there is some problem with the digital clocks that I am unaware of, but otherwise this looks reasonable to me.

As the organizer, you got to find out what amount of moves you want to end the first time control. Lets give 40 moves to end the first time control, so you will have 40/75 + 30in SD/10 + 30in. If it was one time control it would be G/85 + 30in. Not sure what you want with the 100 moves, if 40/75 + 30in SD/10 + 30in or G/85 + 30in went 100 moves the round could last 4.5 hours. If it is the standard 60 moves, the round could last 3 hours and 50 minutes.

There is one major issue that has to be looked at, if you want to get 100 moves in within the time limit you want. Not sure if a G/30 + 30in would be dual rated? The rules committee would have to look into this, as a G/30 + 30in, the game could be 20 moves (total time 50 minutes), it could be G/30 + 30in and end on move 31 (total time 61 minutes). Not to step into the question of it being dual rated or single rated, the fastest time control should be G/60 + 30in. If you are looking to have 100 moves within the time limit you want, G/60 + 30in can take up to 3 hours and 40 minutes.

If you do want Fischer increments, with two rounds’ per-day. It would be best if you went with one time control then the two time controls. Since this is going to be Fischer increments, you should inform the players before the tournament in pre-announcements you are going to use the old rule in the 4th edition of the 150 move draw rule with digital clocks. The reason with this, the organizers and the players will understand when the round will end. If you have G/60 + 30in at 150 moves, the total time for the whole round will not be 4 hours and 30 minutes. If you want two rounds’ per-day, you are talking about 9 hours a day. If you use the old rule of the 150 move draw, 30/60 + 30in SD/60 + 30in at 150 moves, it will take 7 hours and 30 minutes. If you want two rounds’ per-day, you are talking about 15 hours a day.

A couple of years ago, I looked at a large database of games from TWIC (weekinchess.com). This included GM games but also many amateur games from open tournaments. I don’t have the spreadsheet I made handy, but less than one game in a thousand went 120 moves. A database of older master games had about the same proportion.

Anecdotally, I played a lot of club tournaments in the pre-sudden death era, probably a dozen a year for 20 years, at time controls of usually 30/90, 20/60 repeating (or 25/60 repeating). Usually games were adjourned around move 80, and I’d see maybe a half-dozen games a year get adjourned (not my games, any games in the event). These were 20-30 player, 4 round events, so let’s see… that’s 600 games a year, with a half-dozen adjournments; one out of a hundred.

Personally, I have had three adjourned games in my life, about 500 games or so played in such tournaments.

So. If I were going to run an increment tournament, I’d figure out how long I wanted between the start of the first round and the start of the second, and make the time control such that 120 moves could be played. I’d expect a game in a thousand to be longer than that. If your’re willing to have one game in a hundred run long, you could budget for 90 moves in that time (a half-hour shorter at 30 seconds a move, as it happens).

So if you wanted rounds at noon and 4:30pm (about like G/120), you could do G/75+30 seconds (allowing 120 moves) or G/90+30 (allowing 90 moves).

Rounds at noon and 5:30pm (like 30/90, SD/60) could be G/105+30 (120 move allowance) or G/120+30 (90 moves).

You can make the kind of two-control time limit you were talking by making a first control of 30 or 40 moves in the allotted time minus 10 minutes; 30/80+30 seconds followed by SD/10 + 30, instead of G/90+30, for instance. Assuming, of course, that your players have clocks that can do two time controls with increment.

I’d enthusiastically play in those tournaments if I were in your area. Best of luck to you!

-ed g.

If you want a 95% probability of starting rounds on time, assume a 60-move game. If you want 99%, assume 80 moves.

Also, allow an extra half hour between rounds to make pairings, get the players settled, compensate for late-starting games in previous rounds, etc.

For example, with game/90, inc/30, a 60-move game could take 2 hours per player, so allow 4 and a half hours between rounds, such as 10:00 and 2:30.

Forget about multiple controls, such as 40/60, inc/30, then SD/30, inc/30. The whole idea of increment is to get rid of “artificial time pressure” at move 40 (or any other intermediate point). Also, some clocks may not support increment with multiple controls.

Forget about the w.c. break. The player on the move would have an unfair advantage, as he could use the extra 10 minutes to ponder his move. To get around this, you’d have to go the whole nine yards with adjournments, sealed move envelopes, etc, which I really don’t think you’d want to deal with these days.

One thing you MUST consider is what to do in games played with clocks which are not increment-capable. One alternative would be to require each player to furnish an increment-capable clock, but this could reduce your turnout. Another alternative would be an alternative time control. For example, game/90, inc/30 could be played at game/120 in games played with older equipment. (Obviously, increment-capable equipment would be preferable, i.e. either player who furnishes such equipment could insist on using it.)

Increment is feasible for one or two rounds per day. Three is stretching it. With four or more, forget increment – revert to the 5-second delay.

Bill Smythe

Instead of clicking on “Post Reply”, click on “Quote” at the top of the message you want to quote from. The entire message will then appear, preceded by “” and followed by “”. (You’ll actually see square braces instead of angle braces.) Then type your response at the end.

You can also edit the quote by deleting all but the specific passages you want to respond to. (In fact, please do – better netiquette, etc.)

Bill Smythe

An interesting (though probably academic) question is whether a tournament with such a stipulation could qualify as a Grand Prix. “All USCF-rated players over 2199 must be eligible to play,” and “Other than entry fees and USCF dues, no charges over $25 are permitted.” Would this be an additional charge in kind?

Hmmm … What “other charges” are typical? And why is the $75 ‘qualifier fee’ OK … because it’s not levied on everyone or because it’s vountary?

Thx