I have two questions on how to rule in a time control situation. These are inspired by an actual event, but key facts have been changed to protect the TD .
Assume both white and black are 5 moves short of making their first time control, each player having only seconds left on his clock. While contemplating his move, whiteās flag falls, which he points out. Black does not have a complete scoresheet to claim a win on time, and does not attempt to do so. Therefore no claim is being made or denied. Whiteās scoresheet is complete.
White goes into his second time control and resumes his clock running for his second time control.
13C11 appears to deal with the situation where (in this example) black attempts to claim a win on time when white doesnāt make time control, but doesnāt have the scoresheet to make the claim and is denied. āNo further time-forfeit claims during that time control are allowed.ā
Question 1: Although not the scenario above, I read that to mean by EITHER player, not just the one who tried to claim but was denied. Is that the intent? If so, thatās interesting since black could preclude losing on time by making the claim knowing that it will be denied.
Question 2: Since no claim was made or denied in my example, it would appear to me that white can still claim a win on time if black does not make HIS first time control, since presumably 13C11 does not apply. Is this correct?
I canāt find it off the top of my head, but there is a rule that, if both flags are down in non-sudden death, then the game proceeds to the next time control. Since this would have to be the case for White to make a flag fall claim in either of the situations you describe, then White isnāt able to claim a win on time in that time control (either).
16T Both players exceed time control, states that āno claim of time forfeit is possible.ā
A player can claim his own flag, as it appears to me White did in the original scenario. By claiming his own flag, White prevents Black from filling in the missing moves on his score sheet in order to validate the claim.
Which black points out or white??? If white āpoints this out,ā then white should have self-initiated the time forfeit procedure (13C2,) to avoid black being able to make the claim on this control - verifying Blackās scoresheet is inadequate to make the claim. The 13C2 TD TIP points out this is the reason for 13C2. If this was done, black canāt later make the claim. White also loses the ability to claim blackās loss on time (13C13) - but would lose this ability no matter what since whiteās flag has fallen.
(This is the boy-scout/girl-scout, most honest method. Though you stipulate this doesnāt occur.)
White wouldnāt resume, āclock running for second time control,ā until black has completed blackās move for the end of the first time control. Unless the clocks are not (or cannot be) correctly set. White remains in a flag-fallen position until the moves catch up to the next control. Unless Iām missing something really fundamental here.
You acknowledged, though, that neither player made the claim. And, yes, white canāt lose on time, because black has not properly kept score. Black canāt lose on time because whiteās flag has fallen.
But in practice and not theoryā¦ It may seem black canāt lose on time, because whiteās flag has fallen. Whiteās failure to make the control is counterbalanced by blackās failure to be keeping score correctly. Either way, both sides have erred and both sides āpay the priceā by not being able to make a claim.
BUTā¦ letās say white makes move 40, blackās time runs out, and white then makes a claim. (If itās before White 40, then the clock should still reflect that whiteās flag has fallen. At white 40 the clock may reset for the next control, though. There would be a telltale, though, in that whiteās time would be exactly the next control time. Not control time + whatever was left over. Iām not sure about what you wrote that whiteās time starts counting down after making the control - see above in the text. Anyhooā¦)
I think Black actually protects blackās interest by denying white the ability to claim a time forfeit after white move 40 (at the low, low price of 2 minutes addition to opponentās time per 13C11. Which would be added to the next control.) BUT Iām not sure about thatā¦
If white did claim this on 40, assuming black runs out of time also and before the clock reset, it might be seen as just desserts to black for failure to properly keep score in a non-sudden-death control.
(Because, after all, if Black had called the flag with improper scoresheet, white would have had the 2 minutes coming in 13C11 for blackās failure to correctly score. Presumably enough time for white to outlast black.)
13C11 wouldnāt apply, since whiteās scoresheet is sufficient to āwin on time,ā but as pointed out by other posters above,
13C13 would control - whiteās flag fell during that time control, IMVHO. But see aboveā¦ how does black then prove that whiteās flag actually fell? This, though, would be the time for black to come clean and acknowledge whiteās flag fell and black didnāt make the claim.
White wouldnāt ābegin the second time controlā until black has completed blackās first. But, āwhereās the beef?ā of that? Other than if a TD or impartial witness will come forward that whiteās clock fell, or if the TD could detect that whiteās clock had actually fallen somehow. (How can you have 59 or 58 minutes coming to you in move 41 if you didnāt exceed them earlier? etc.)
Just MVHO. Iād be interested in seeing differing opinions to the above.
A lot of this seems rather beside the point. No matter how you want to word it, a player cannot claim a win on time if his own flag is down. I agree that there are some practical problems determining this with digital clocks, but thatās another matter entirely.
The only gray area I can see would be a case like: 1) Blackās flag falls, 2) White says or does something indicating that heās making a claim, 3) Black instantly makes a move and presses the clock, 4) Whiteās flag falls. This one is fact-specific, and thereās no way to give a general answer as to how the TD should rule. (Depends on what he saw and what he can verify.)
Thanks for everyoneās responses. I think 13C13 is the piece I had overlooked. Since whiteās flag fell, white cannot later claim a win on time āDURING THAT TIME CONTROLā if black also fails to make his first time control.
But that raises another question, because perhaps I assumed something I shouldnāt. In the scenario given (each player 5 or so moves short with seconds left in the first time control when whiteās flag falls), when does whiteās second time control actually start?
Since clocks vary in operation/capability, Iām interested in both the theoretical answer, as well as a practical one if the clock in use wonāt accomodate the ārightā answer.
Someone suggested white remains in a flag down situation until black reaches the end of his first time control, THEN both players go into the second time control. Does that mean there is no clock running for white in the mean time? (I hope not.)
Or is white just in a flag down condition for purposes of winning on time in the first time control, but his clock does in fact advance to the second control and continues running while he considers moves?
If the latter, does it make any real difference whether blackās clock counts down the first time control before going to the second one, or if it simply adds the next time allowed to the time remaining on the first control at the same time white proceeds to his second control?
Thanks again. These discussions are really helpful.
I think that this is one place where FIDE regulations are superior to USCF. In FIDE, the time is added when the player (perhaps the first player?) uses the first amount of time, that is in a 40/2, SD/1 time control time would be added after the player (either player?) has used two hours. In the USCF, you have time added after the players have reached 40 moves. This can cause a great deal of confusion if there is a dispute about how many moves have been played. I can also imagine a player reaching behind the clock to add a half hour (or whatever) after his flag has fallen, but before the opponent has had the chance to make a claim. I realize that this doesnāt answer the question.
Since the digital clock is really just a lifelike simulation of a ārealā chess clock, a better way to approach the question to ask is what happens with a BHB. The answer is that the clock keeps running, neither player can win on time at the first time control (White because his flag is down, Black because he didnāt have a complete scoresheet when Whiteās flag fell), and the players have (typically) another hour plus any time they had left to reach the second time control. Exactly how this is implemented on a digital clock depends on the make of clock.
It depends on the clock.
If it is an analog clock the time used between flagging and the time control is still being tracked. So if the clock is set to flag at 6:00, all the time is used at move 35 of a 40-move time control, and the clock reads 6:05 after move 40, five minutes have already been used of the next time control and the time control goes to the next number (i.e. a 40/90, 25/60 time control means that the player flags unless reach move 65 by the time the clock reads 7:00).
If it is a digital clock set to automatically add the next time control upon the expiration of the current one (a normal setting if the move counter is not being used), then it will go straight from 0:00:01 to 60:00:00 (using the above time control) upon expiration of the first time control for one player. This has the virtue of not having an incorrect move count cause time to be added too early (if one person made an illegal move and the other person hit the clock to have them make a legal move - adding an extra move to the move counter) or too late (if a player forgot to hit the clock and both players made an additional move without noticing, thus having the move counter a move behind the actual number played).
There is the potential for confusion if one player is using a lot of time and the other isnāt (at the 1.5 hour mark of a 20/60, 20/60 time control at move 25 one player has used an 75 minutes and the other has used 15 minutes with both showing 45 minutes remaining - the difference in clock time vs wall time shows only that one of the players really has an additional hour coming - but at move 58 with one player having used 181 minutes and the other 61, both have 59 minutes showing on the clock and an easy and erroneous assumption is that each really does have 59 minutes instead of one actually having 119 and the other having flagged a minute ago).
If it is a digital clock set to use a move counter but to continue marking time then once the time control is reached the additional time is added (less the amount of time already counted as used).
Other clock settings (not counting used time or stopping when flagging) leave things more muddled regarding the additional amount of time to be given to each side.
Not that I would expect this to happen very often, but is it common practice to consider the number of moves per time control to be cumulative, rather than each to stand alone? You are saying in the example above the player would have to make 30 moves in 60 minutes during the second time control to make up the shortfall in the first control, rather than only 25 moves which the second time control specifies.
Yes. Thereās some wording in the Rulebook about this, but I canāt be bothered to look it up just now. In the example above, the second time control is move 65, not ā25 moves after the playerās flag fell.ā
Both moves and time are cumulative. So if you play your first 40 moves in 70 minutes you have 90(first control)-70(time used)=20(balance of first time control)+60(second time control)=80 minutes to reach move 65 (not just 60 minutes to reach move 65).
John, I think you have a typo and meant to say move 65 (the first time control was 40 moves, not 35).
The rule is explicit that unused time from one control carries over to the next, I just wasnāt able to locate anything (which doesnāt necessarily mean thereās nothing there ) that addressed whether the number of moves required to be made is cumulative also.
I couldnāt find it either, which was the reason for my equivocating that I might have missed something obvious.
My interpretation, in which I could be wrong, was that in your example white does indeed exist in a state of timelessness until the control move is reached. (For that matter, black would be in the same state if blackās time also ran out before the control. Which, if I am right, would be the ideal time for black to borrow whiteās sheet and get caught up, even if blackās time then expires. And before handing the sheet over, the ideal time for white to self-flag.)
The rulebook does say time is accumulative from one control to the next. It does not say if lost time is subtractive from the next control - to me the rulebook doesnāt seem to anticipate what to do with the clock in the case of flag fall and no call. (Of course, you could say the ālostā time is a negative amount, and adding a positive to a negativeā¦ )
It all comes down to whether or not the time is actually āaddedā on making the control or if the time for the game is ultimately cumulative. e.g. for the latter: A 40/2 SD/30 without time delay implies an absolute maximum five hours game time / 2 hours 30 minutes absolute max each side. (Which, as I suggest below, depends on the clock mode with my clockā¦)
In practice, I played around with my Chronos while writing my last post. And I found that in some modes (Andante A-2 mode, DN-1 Countdown, Adagio AD-2, Sudden Death SD-2, basically modes without move counter) the time started counting down the next control for white as soon as time reached 0, and in move counter modes (Progressive P-2) whiteās clock stayed at 0 until the number of moves in the control were reached, then the clock added the next controlās increment.
The other in practice: Hopefully the TD would observe the situation to understand what occurs/occurring. Itās still up to the players to call each other, and without a call from the players I think itās still up to the players to set/reset/use the clock correctly. Whatever that is.
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) that addressed whether the number of moves required to be made is cumulative also.
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