Is a player with a digital clock always required to make use of time delay? I ask because young players who think quickly sometimes perceive an advantage in forgoing the delay when playing adults. Whether true or not, my question is whether the rules permit it, whether it’s at the TD’s discretion, or what.
Zug
This is one of the more contentious areas of the rules. Time-delay clocks (which I interpret to mean “a clock with the time-delay turned on”) are “more standard” in any game using any sudden-death time control (which means virtually all games these days). So, if A has a time-delay clock and B offers one with time-delay capacity but the TD turned off, A has the choice.
A more difficult case arises if A doesn’t have a clock, and B has a delay-capable clock but doesn’t want to use the delay. My ruling would be that B is within his rights, but you could get a different argument from some of the more fanatical delay-lovers.
I’m not a “fanatical delay-lover”, however, it’s my contention that the rules allow the TD to determine whether or not a delay shall be used. It is NOT the player’s right to decide otherwise. If the TD allows or requires a delay to be used, the ruling should be consistent for everyone in the event. Allowing individual players to decide whether or not to use the delay is not, in my opinion, good policy, as the white player without a delay clock, but who wishes to avail himself of the TD’s policy that delay is acceptable, is at a disadvantage to the black player who has a delay but doesn’t want to use it.
Summary:
Time Delay use is the TD’s option, NOT the player’s.
TDs should be consistent with all players. One-rule fits all
This is a rule that should be clairified/amended by the Rules Committee.
Terry Winchester
I agree with the last part. The short version of why I would rule as I wrote above is that if A wants to use time delay, it’s up to him to supply a clock. A slightly longer version runs like this: B has a time-delay clock. When he’s asked to turn on the time-delay, he says “No.” Since I have an absolute policy of not setting digital clocks for_anyone_, I’m not going to do so here, and I’m certainly not going to take his clock by force and allow the opponent to set it.
Its’ very much to the local standards of the area. In my area, digital clocks are not the standard. The coffee house players and the tournament players, analog clocks are the majority. If someone has a delay clock, the delay is turned off.
If the delay clocks are not common, like in my area. At this time had 7 Western Michigan Opens, only 4 people had a digital clock. My idea is clear, it is up to the owner of the clock if the delay is on or the delay is off. Since the digital clocks are in the minority, not going to force the owners.
If on the other hand, if the delay clocks are in the majority. If we are talking about 80% of the boards of the tournament. Then would force the owner to use the delay clock. As the delay clocks are the standard, then everyone should use the delay.
Talk to the players in your area, then find out the standards.
There is certainly an enforcement problem with this one. Many TDs, like yourself, and me included, have the same policy of not setting a player’s clock. But mine is a bit more liberal -I HATE that word - in that if I know how to, I will. But, the reason for whether or not to use the delay being the TD’s choice is that many TDs have trouble, or just don’t want to make 14H resolutions. Some don’t feel capable of making those resolutions for higher rated players than themselves. But, I think the point of the original poster’s question was is it the player’s choice? No, it’s not. I guess to resolve the situation you exampled, would require you to allow the player to use the clock w/o the delay, and then if one of the players made a 14H claim, you might require the delay be turned on? If the owner of the clock said “no”, how would you rule? Would you replace the clock with one of your own? Or would you feel comfortable ruling on the 14H claim? I might forfeit him for refusal to obey the Laws of Chess!
Terry W
The problem being a director, is to understand the players. Any director can control the time control or the clock. If you force the players to have a delay clock, even that they do not want it – what good would it do. If the director force a delay clock, against the free will of both players it would stop any 14H claim. Would they come back to your next tournament, some will some will not.
It is legal to have a delay clock, or have the delay off, or have the analog clock. Do not see in any of the text, the director can force the board to change from delay off to delay on. Rule 21D does not give the director the right for intervening in the game to change the clock for a delay clock.
Terry not all tournaments are from large organizers. Most of the smaller tournaments are from the chess clubs. The members of the chess club do have elections, one of the topics of any chess club election are the tournaments. After the election, the club has its’ elected members. If the members do not want to force delay clocks, it will show up during the election. In theory the players do have a choice on delay clocks.
I’m inclined to agree that it is to everyone’s advantage (well, at least the TD’s) to have the time-delay turned on. However, aside from the practical difficulties, I don’t quite see how this can be justified under the rules. Non-time-delay digitals are standard equipment (albeit “less standard” than analog clocks). If A has no clock and B offers a non-time-delay digital, how do you justify telling B that he can’t use his clock?
In the example you give, yes, I would ask the player to turn on the time delay, and if he wouldn’t (or couldn’t – by far the more common case), I would substitute one of my one.
I will set a clock for a secondary time control, if I know how to set that clock. I do not know how to set most digital clocks.
However, I will NOT set the clock for the initial time control. I usually make a pass through the players at the start of the first round to make sure the players have the right time control set (which I also make clear in pre-round announcements), and I try to check them for all rounds
42D. Delay clock preferable in sudden death. … In any particular game, if the delay clock cannot be properly set, then the opponent of the player providing the delay clock may choose which legal clock is to be used (5F).
Would you need to have pre-advance information rule 42D is not going to be enforced? If the director substitute the clock, not the opponent of the player having the choose: would it not need pre-advance information before the start of the event?
I don’t see the relevance here. 42D refers to choice of equipment at the start of the game. The relevant rule for the case under discussion is 14H2a.
14H2a. The claim is unclear and a delay clock is available for the game. A director who believes the claim is neither clearly correct (14H2c) nor clearly incorrect (14H2d), but is instead uncertain as to the correctness of the claim, may place a delay clock on the game, setting it as follows: The claimant gets half of the claimant’s remaining time (rounded to the nearest second); the opponent’s time is unadjusted; the time delay is set for the standard delay announced at the start of the tournament. After the claimant’s clock is started, the 14H draw request by the claimant becomes a draw offer under 14B3, Draw offer before moving. Penalties for rule infractions remain standard. The claimant may win, lose, or draw the game
Now I understand, if I cannot set my delay clock right at the start of the game it is a insufficient losing chance claim. If you change the clock on the board to a delay clock, would I still have the right to accept a draw? As a 14H claim is also a draw offer. Since you the director has open up the claim of 14H, as a way into intervening into the start of the game. Should I now have the right to accept a draw, as the director has use the 14H claim for intervening into the game?
If you read into the posting of Zug, you can see it is about the mandatory use of delay with digital clocks at the start of the game.
The section of my reply which you quoted was in response to a hypothetical about what I would do if the game started with time-delay off and a 14H claim arose.
However, even for the question which started this thread, 42D is still irrelevant. The question is not whether A can insist on the use of a time-delay clock if he supplies one; clearly he can. The question is whether he can compel his opponent to supply one if the opponent does not want to do so.
If, arguendo, the opponent (or the TD) can require a player to set his clock with the time-delay on, (and leaving aside for the moment the question of what happens if he says he doesn’t know how), can he also require the player to take the time-delay clock out of his bag if he doesn’t want to use it at all? If not, how are the cases distinguishable?
Looks like it’s time to trot out the ol’ Smythe DIRTY POOL sheet:
DIRTY POOL
It is DIRTY POOL to furnish a delay-capable digital clock without the delay set. Such a setting can confuse the opponent into believing there is a delay when there is none, resulting in unnecessary and acrimonious time-forfeit disputes.
If you furnish and use a digital clock without the delay set, any or all of the following may happen to you:
The TD reserves the right, at any time during the game, to point out to your opponent that the delay is not set.
The TD reserves the right to allow your opponent, at any time during the game, to substitute any clock, digital or analog, furnished by him.
If you claim a draw on the grounds of insufficient losing chances, the TD may summarily dismiss your claim and subtract time from your clock. If, however, your opponent makes such a claim, he will receive the usual kind, gentle treatment.
If you claim a win by time forfeit, the TD may dismiss your claim and give your opponent 5 minutes, plus delay time, to finish the game or reach the time control. No such consideration, however, will be given to you, should your opponent claim a win by time forfeit.
Posting the above at the tournament (and making it available as a handout) has proven to be an excellent preventative measure. So far, I’ve never had to use 3 or 4 (I’m not even sure I’d dare). Sometimes, the threat is worse than the execution.
Bill Smythe
If you are going to have such strict rulings, I’d start asking questions.
First, define “digital clock.” Is a clock that uses quartz timing considered digital even if it looks like an analog clock? I’d get just as picky and say since it uses digital (the quartz translated into electrical impulses to count time) instead of anaolg means (using springs and gears) that it is digital even though it has hands and a clock face. If you are saying a digital clock is one with a digital display, then you’re fine with me.
Of course, I can point out to you that a digital clock (and I think some have mentioned it here) doesn’t necessarily have time delay. My son has one such clock. It is digital, but there’s no time delay with it. How would you rule then?
Actually, we’ve had this discussion many times before, and it’s getting tiresome, don’t you think?
Radishes
Sounds like this is indeed a contentious area, and I thank you all for your feedback.
Terry Winchester was correct - the point of my original post was to ask whether use of delay was at the player’s discretion. If it were my son, I would always ask him to consult with the TD first before making an unilateral decision not to set delay, and I would also encourage him (in the spirit of good sportsmanship if for no other reason - see Bill Smythe’s DIRTY POOL guidance) to advise his opponents of the situation prior to play.
Zug
A clock like the old Master Quartz, with physical hands powered by an electronic movement, would NOT be considered digital. The impossibility of setting it precisely is the main reason. I dare anybody to set it for 5 minutes in such a way that, even if one side runs continuously, the flag falls after EXACTLY five minutes. It will always be several seconds off, one way or the other.
On the other hand, the Garde Electronic WOULD be considered digital. For one thing, it has a supplementary digital display, and it CAN be set precisely.
I would try to point out to both players, as early as possible in the game, that their clock does not have delay capability, and that therefore an eventual 14H claim could be in order. That’s point 1 of my Dirty Pool sheet. That point is not merely punitive; rather, it’s intended to keep players informed.
Well, people keep bringing it up, so I guess it bears repeating.
Bill Smythe
Considering that it appears to be the same people posting the same opinions over and over, I’m not sure the repetitions are particularly worthwhile.
There are some players that want to keep the 14H claim alive. If my oppentent wants the analog clock, I’m not thinking it will end in a 14H claim. If my oppentent does make a 14H claim, I’ll just take the draw and move on. Its’ just rating points, when you play around 200 rated games a year like myself, in time a single game is so what.