I don’t know if it is technically illegal(probably is) but there can be sanctions for an outsider calling a players flag down. If this is the case, why then is it legal, to have a clock beep, and advise a player that his opponents flag has fallen??
Probably because the rules say it is legal. 
Look at it this way, the warning beep occurs for both players irregardless. It is completely nuetral.
FIDE’s position on this is that:
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The arbiter calls the flag, not the players.
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The clock may not make any audible signal that time has expired.
The USCF needs to implement the same rule, the clock beeping should not be allowed to alert a player to flag. I have seen several games were both players were scrambling with only seconds(possibly like this years Womens Championship) if the clock had not beeped, both flags would(likely)have fallen and the game would have technically been a draw, and not a loss on time. Instead the clock beeped, and thus Krush got up and left.
I think the rationale is that it’s impartial, that is it doesn’t help a particular player. Personally, I don’t like it, but it is legal.
How do you deal with the setting “Halt on end” which stops both clocks when one player oversteps the time limit? That makes the draw by mutual flag fall impossible.
Alex Relyea
I assume you are referring just to the second part of that, the audible signal.
Having the TDs call the flags in large Swiss events is not practical.
FIDE’s rule actually states something different
So players can definitely call the flag or when the arbiter observes the flag fall then he may call it. It does not mean the arbiter(s) have to constantly stare at the flags on all of the games and immediately call them.
Right you are, Chris. My error.
In the context of the original question, the TD is an ‘outsider’ who is not permitted to call the flag, though.
It depends on how many TDs you have - and you don’t need as many as you might think.
Back in the early 90s, I was on a staff of four TDs for a 220 player event. We used FIDE time forfeit procedure for all sections and were easily able to have a TD counting the moves and calling flags in every single time pressure situation. We were never even remotely close to having too many games to watch at the same time.
– Hal Terrie
Hal, could that change under the increment time controls that are becoming popular at FIDE events? It seems to me you’d could have more games in time trouble and for longer periods of time, thus increasing the number of arbiters needed.
Really my question was not merely outside callers, but the clock beeping - effectively calling flag. The essential thing about our game is that winning and losing is wherever possible all on the individual player. We no longer even allow players to write down their moves before making it as it might assist them as a memory aid! This focus on the individual and being responsible for winning and losing is one of the greatest aspects of our game. You don’t get help in chess. The clock beeping is a memory aid to advise you to call flag, no different than writing moves before you make it, except that it is considerably more egregious!. Rules committee Ban flag calling clocks!!
Yes, that could be true. The event in question was before the days of digital clocks or sudden death. The time control was 40/2, 20/1 etc.
– Hal Terrie
Incorrect.
Quote saturday night live “Welll excuuuse me!” Text of the new 15a as passed at Cherry Hill:
ADM 07-30 (substitute for original motion in advance agenda)
Variation to Rule 15A
15.A. (Variation 1) Paper scoresheet variation.
The player using a paper scoresheet may first make the move, and then write it on the scoresheet, or vice versa. This variation does not need to be advertised in advance.
TD Tip: TD’s may penalize a player that is in violation of 20C. “Use of notes prohibited” if the player is first writing the move and repeatedly altering that move on their scoresheet before completing a move on the board…
Additionally: Effective immediately, move that the last sentence of 20C be changed to:
See also 1C2, Director discretion; 15. The Recording of Games; and 21K, Use of director’s power.
PASSED
Thanks for distracting from the thread, the writing down of moves before making a move is a VARIATION, which apparently has been made acceptable, but it is not the main rule proper.
Back to the true point clock calling flag is an outside assistance. It is an outside assistance. If any player in america got down to duplicate time pressure, and i casually walked bye and said “Flag!”. There is no question that i would be in the wrong, here the clock is coming in and doing the same thing. It is on a player to call his own flag in USCF rules. The clock beeping is in fact not making a claim. The clock can not make a claim. Upon hearing the flag beep, a player is thus alerted and then makes the claim of flag. This is unfair outside assistance, and I truly hope the rules committe forbays this in the future
The reason it is not unfair is that the clock, if working correctly, is guaranteed to beep at the time control the same way, every time, regardless of which side’s flag is down. If the clock only beeped when White’s flag fell, but not when Black’s flag fell, that would be unfair. Under FIDE rules, the TD would perform that function, telling the players when one side has not made the time control, because it’s presumed that the TD would be equally likely to do so for either side, regardless of whether it were White or Black’s time which was used up.
In non-increment games, some TDs might prefer clocks which do not beep or freeze at the end of the time control, because that allows the otherwise doomed player the chance to escape if his opponent also falls before making a claim, and puts an extra burden on the opponent to do so. On the other hand, some TDs prefer clocks which freeze because there is no disputing which player’s flag fell “first.”
He is found! The god of knowing and defining for everyone what the subjective idea of what is fair and is not fair is Steve Immitt. He is found! A bystander walks bye, and he plans to call flag regardless of which players flag falls first, a totally likely scenario. He calls it, sure everyone thinks that this outside unbiased assistance from this impartial bystander was fair. “Not”! If it were a tournament director, he would be declaring flag. The clock is not declaring flag, it is alerting a player to make a claim.
A few more bones to chew on:
"A few areas of the USCF rule book ( # 5 ) are appropriate:
11D1 Illegal move in sudden death time pressure: A director should not call attention to illegal moves in sudden death time pressure.
(Both players could be seen making questionable moves in the video)
21D Intervening in games. The director’s intervention in a chess game shall generally be limited to the following:
21D2 Correcting illegal moves observed. Correcting any illegal moves observed, unless time pressure exists…
21F. Player requests for rulings. A player has the right to stop both clocks to ask the director to rule upon a point of law, procedure or conduct. (This was not done by either player).
They all point to lack of outside intereference even illegal moves if TIME, is critical
You were more convincing as Steve Martin.
Not such a likely scenario.
The unbiased spectator is not necessary, because that job is outsourced to the clock, which is assumed to be more reliable.
But if the clock does that consistently and impartially, it is not being unfair.
Under FIDE rules, the TD would be making the claim for the player, and he is thereby alerting the player that the opponent did not make the time control. The player does not need to be reminded to make the claim, because the TD made the claim. Under USCF Rules, the clock also alerts the player that the opponent did not make the time control. But here the player still needs to make a claim. With a clock beeping, the player has to do one more thing than he does when the TD calls the flag, but he has been alerted to the fact that the time control is up in either case, and both sides are confident that this is equally likely to occur for either one of them. If the clock continues running at the time control, the opponent might hope to escape the loss if the player does not notice the opponent’s 0:00 before the player’s clock also reads 0:00. If the clock freezes at the time control, then the opponent has no hope of avoiding the loss, but there is no question as to which player used up his time “first.”
If cheater A cheats me and player B equally he is not being unfair? Great equal opportunity cheaters. The point that you do not wish to acknowledge or accept, which is fine with me is that in chess it is innapropriate to recieve outside influence(excluding a TD) during a game, especially if that influence can alter the outcome of the game. Regardless of whether the influencer is being impartial or not. This is a relatively new issue in that clocks have not always beeped! You might be surprised, to know that historically people have made significant efforts for analog clocks to be silent when the flag falls( a few clocks have made a click), for this precise reason. Looking at the clock, and realizing time is up is different than having the clock yell Beep(hey! his flag is down). That’s almost as bad as someone walking by and going hey look there’s a tactic.
Steve you know ,and I know that i’m right let’s leave it at that.
I admire your optimism, but I prefer to just leave.
"A few areas of the USCF rule book ( # 5 ) are appropriate:
11D1 Illegal move in sudden death time pressure: A director should not call attention to illegal moves in sudden death time pressure.
21D Intervening in games. The director’s intervention in a chess game shall generally be limited to the following:
21D2 Correcting illegal moves observed. Correcting any illegal moves observed, unless time pressure exists…
21F. Player requests for rulings. A player has the right to stop both clocks to ask the director to rule upon a point of law, procedure or conduct. (a right to claim, but not to be notified…beep)
All pointing to non intereference. even regarding illegal moves if TIME is critical.
When a guy is right what can i say, i’m right. Thank you very much