Prizes

The way I think about such distributions is, “which award benefits the next player in line more - the natural prize**, or the remaining higher prize?” If the natural prize is greater, the remaining higher prize is passed down until that’s no longer true. I think this is easier, and doesn’t shortchange anyone.

I’ve allocated such prizes this way in more than one CCA event. If it’s the World Open or Chicago Open, I’ve always submitted my allocations to Bill Goichberg for his review prior to posting them.

** I define “natural prize” as “the prize a player would receive if there were no restrictions.” For example, in Mr. Ballou’s specific scenario, Carol’s natural prize would be $50.

I think that’s wrong. The first three players are entitled to as much of the first three prizes as the rules allow, thus $200+$100+$25 which gets distributed $200, $25, $100. That’s a general principle of prize distribution—subsets of players should be allowed to maximize their collective prizes. Point 4 in the rule cited would make that clear if Carol also had 4.5. Dave, who is not in the top 3, shouldn’t benefit from the fluke of the specific scores of the players ahead of him.

Eastside’s method is also used by Rules Committee Chairman David Kuhns, so I wouldn’t say that it’s wrong. I believe that Bill Goichberg would award the prizes the way that you’ve suggested, and so would I. Both methods are valid under the prize distribution rules.

In 2011 Steve Immitt and I tried to eliminate the ambiguity in the rules with an ADM which would have required the prizes to be awarded your way, but it didn’t pass. Different directors use different methods, and all are valid as long as they follow the rule that was posted earlier.

Boyd’s method is certainly simpler, but I think “wrong” is still an appropriate way to describe it—it’s too easy to produce prize distributions that simply look incorrect. Suppose, for instance, that the limit were $50 rather than $25. Then you would do $200, $50, $50, $50, i.e. Carol and Dave would get the same, despite having different scores and despite having precisely 3 top prizes, one of which fits the $50 limit perfectly. Or suppose the limit were $100 and Bob and Alice’s scores were switched. Then the distribution would be $100, $100, $100 and $50. I think that would be hard to explain to Alice.

Whether a distribution looks correct is irrelevant. What matters is whether a distribution is correct, and defensible by rule. I’m certain the distributions I cited are legal, and they’re easy to explain.

Contrary to Mr. Doan’s extrapolation, when the restriction amount is equal to a prize that is involved, I just award that prize to the restricted player. That way, prizewinners above and below the restricted player are still maximized.

Aren’t these two statements (by Mr. Reed and Mr. Messenger) contradictory, or at least inconsistent with each other?

No, I don’t believe so. Your hypothetical (which is what I was answering) had a restriction amount that was lower than any of the involved prizes. That’s not a common situation in CCA events - any prize restriction is generally in the area of second or third place in most sections.

I think Boyd would have discovered the difference between his method of awarding prizes and Bill’s method if he’d been the section chief of the Under 1200 section of the 2012 World Open. Recently he’s been the section chief of the Under 2200 and Under 2000 sections, which probably haven’t had a lot of restricted prizes.

I’m not surprised that half a dozen NTDs would have half a dozen different ways of doing this one. That simply proves the stupidity of the standard methods of splitting prizes, or the stupidity of having an unrated limit, or both.

Maybe it was an under-2400 section? :confused:

Bill Smythe

Something else which occurs to me is that Boyd’s method is actually not quite the same as the David Kuhns method. If the limited prize is the same as one of the announced, but lower, prizes, Boyd’s method and Bill’s method produce the same result.

Just wondering what Mr. Ballou’s solution to his exercise? I am still intrigued, after seeing the two solutions posted and their respective explanations, what is Mr. Ballou’s explanation because I would to be able to do it properly - unlike my earlier post! EEK!

Best,
Acerook

I think it’s just that the “rule” for handling restricted prizes is far too vague.

Fair point, but I do believe that you and Mr. Messenger have distributed the prizes in my example in different manners, and both you and Mr. Messenger have stated (or at least implied) that Mr. Goichberg would agree with the prize distribution in each case.

I understand that the prize fund and restriction is not typical of CCA events; it was designed to stimulate discussion of the application of a particular rule. (And i must say it succeeded beyond my wildest hope, especially with Mr. Perks coming up with a distribution I did not anticipate.) On the other hand, I also firmly believe that not all of chessdom is CCA.

I also admit that I’m not sure how I would distribute the prizes in my own example. There is a definite appeal to Mr. Reed’s method, which essentially creates a new “virtual prize” out of the remainder of the prize to which the restriction has been applied. On the other hand, Mr. Doan’s argument (that the top three players expect to be awarded the sum of $200, $100, and $50, or $350 and should take as much of that as possible) is also compelling.

If I were to summarize the two approaches, I would say that Mr. Reed’s approach creates a new prize, while Mr. Doan’s approach (which Mr. Messenger favors) essentially awards the unrated player prize money from the least prize that is at least as much as the restricted amount.

To make that clearer, let’s suppose the prize fund includes a fourth place prize of $25, so the prizes are $$200-100-50-25. (And, to address Mr. Mulford’s concern, let’s take 401 rating points away from everybody and call it an “under 1800” section. :slight_smile:) In this case, Mr. Reed’s method would award Alice $200, Bob $25, Carol $75, Dave $50, and the fourth place prize would be paid out to someone else (who scored 3.0 or less). If I understand Mr. Doan’s method, I believe it would award Alice $200, Bob $25, Carol $100, and Dave $50. Effectively, Bob would win the fourth place prize, Carol the second place prize, and Dave the third place prize. By introducing a new prize from the remainder of the second place prize, Mr. Reed’s method awards prizes to more players than Mr. Doan’s method.

When I posted the hypothetical, I originally had in mind Mr. Reed’s distribution as “the correct answer.” Now, I’m really not sure, although I do find Mr. Perks’s prize distribution troubling. One thing that troubles me about Mr. Perks’s distribution (and, to be honest, about Mr. Doan’s distribution as well) is that Carol finished in third place. If Bob were not unrated, this would be an utterly trivial prize distribution question, and Carol would win the $50 third place prize. I’m troubled that Carol wins more money for her performance based on who won the first and second place prizes. (I know this also happens with Mr. Reed’s distribution, but I am less troubled because Mr. Reed’s method creates a new “somewhere between second and third prize” from the remainder of the second place prize. I also realize I’m splitting semantic hairs.) Also quite troubling to me is that, in both Mr. Perks’s and Mr. Doan’s distributions is that Dave ends up with less than the fourth place prize of $50, even though Dave is clearly in fourth place with no tie. (Hm, with more thought, I’m beginning to see that as a compelling reason to believe Mr. Reed’s distribution is best.)

We had a prize distribution question several years ago that involved four players tied for two place prizes and two “under” prizes. Of the four, three players were eligible for the “under” prize; one was not. The two “under” prizes were considerably larger than the third and fourth place prizes, but not large enough that if the three eligible players divided the two “under” prizes they would receive more than just summing all the prizes involved and dividing evenly. However, this had a bizarre effect: By summing the prizes involved and dividing the sum evenly (rule 32B3), the player who was not eligible for the “under” prizes would win more than the third place prize (which is what that player would have received had there been no tie). It doesn’t make sense for a player to win more money in the presence of a tie than if there were no tie. As a result, rule 32B3 was amended in 2014 to include an explicit statement that no player may win more as the result of a tie than that player would win if the player were alone in that score group.

Now, I fully understand that this situation is different and the analogy is flawed. Here, we do not have a tie, but rather an artificial restriction on a particular player’s prize winnings. But I still have a feeling of disquiet caused by Carol winning more than the “natural prize” (to use Mr. Reed’s term). Maybe the clearest thing I can say is that I really don’t like limits on unrated players’ prize winnings, although I understand why organizers do this.

The rule governing restricted prize amounts was added while I was a delegate but before I was on the rules committee. I was also not on the rules committee when the motion from Mr. Messenger and Mr. Immitt was considered in 2011. I would certainly hope the rules committee considered various “what if” scenarios such as the one I presented when considering this rule, but I’m concerned it may not have. In any case, I can’t say that I’m a fan of having ambiguous prize distribution rules, and the fact that two NTDs and a very highly experienced ANTD come up with different prize distributions. If we’re going to have rules governing prize distribution, I would greatly prefer that the rules be deterministic in all cases. (Otherwise, what’s the point?)

To quote Mr. Just: DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! :smiley:

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I don’t see how that is. Again, what would happen if the prize fund were $$200-100-50-25, with a prize limit of $25 for unrated players?

But that’s not then a consistent procedure. In the original situation, if the limit were $51, my understanding of what you’re saying is that Bob would get $51 out of the $100 creating a $49 remainder prize. Thus Carol would get $50 and David $49. An epsilon change to a prize or limit shouldn’t create such a large change in the distribution.

Doggone it … now I’m suffering from an excess of good arguments …

Bolding added.
One reason often given for the prize limits on unrateds for class prizes is that there is a fair chance that they are really stronger than the players in the class and such limits protect the other players in the class from unrated players taking an unreasonable portion of the class money. Following that premise, it would seem that essentially removing the unrateds from the prize sequence as much as possible would be the cleanest way of protecting the other players. Thus the second-highest performing rated player in a section could be seen as having a legitimate claim on the second place money for the section.

Case 1 prize fund $200, $100, $50, second place unrated limited to $25
Case 2 prize fund $200, $100, $50, second place unrated limited to $60
Case 3 prize fund $200, $100, $50, first place unrated limited to $25
Case 4 prize fund $200, $100, $50, first place unrated limited to $60
Case 5 prize fund $200, $100, $50, unrated tied for first/second limited to $25
Case 6 prize fund $200, $100, $50, unrated tied for first/second limited to $60

Algorithm A (Tom)
Algorithm B (Boyd)
Algorithm C (Grant)

1A $200, $25, $100, $25
1B $200, $25, $75, $50
1C $200, $25, $87.50, $37.50

2A $200, $60, $90
2B $200, $60, $50, $40
2C $200, $60, $70, $20

3A $25, $200, $100, $25
3B $25, $175, $100, $50
3C $25, $187.50, $93.75, $43.75

4A $60, $200, $90
4B $60, $140, $100, $50
4C $60, $170, $85, $35

5A $200/$25, $100, $25
5B $200/$25, $75, $50 (sub-rule 4 avoids a $150/$25, $125, $50 split)
5C $200/$25, $87.50, $37.50

6A $200/$60, $90
6B $200/$60, $50, $40
6C $200/$60, $70, $20

As I understand it, based on what Boyd wrote above, he and Bill Goichberg would award $200 to Alice, $100 to Carol, $50 to Dave, and $25 to Bob, whereas David Kuhns would award $200 to Alice, $25 to Bob, $75 to Carol, $50 to Dave, and $25 to the next player in line.