Rule 11, Illegal Moves

[Micah_Smith]

I enjoyed listening to the TD Show on illegal moves.

One thing it reminded me about is how rule 11 in the US Chess rulebook, viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25227.

To start us off, how about these improvements: 1) Incorporate rule 11B into rule 11A and title it something like “Illegal move outside of time pressure”. This would make it so there is one section that discusses illegal moves outside of time pressure and one section that discusses illegal moves in time pressure. 2) Move rule 11H up to become rule 11A1 since this is related to rule 11A. 3) Move rule 11D1 up to become the new rule 11B since it makes sense to have the section on Illegal moves in time pressure right after the section on illegal moves outside of time pressure and it makes no sense to have it as a sub-rule of 11D like it currently is. 4) Reword the title of rule 11D from “Illegal move” to “Illegal move penalty” to make it clear what the section is about. 5) Eliminate the wording in 11H that says “The time on the clocks shall not be adjusted”. This extraneous wording was deleted from rule 11D1 effective 1-1-20 but was not deleted from rule 11H. If these changes are made, the sections of rule 11 would now look like this:

11A. Illegal move outside of time pressure.

11A1. Director corrects illegal move outside of time pressure. (Variation 11A1A. Director as witness only.)

11B. Illegal move in time pressure.

11C. Accidental piece displacement.

11D. Illegal move penalty.

11E. Incorrect adjourned position.

11F. Incorrect initial position.

11G. Incorrect placement of chessboard.

11H. Spectators.

11I. Deliberate illegal moves.

[jwiewel]

@Micah Smith

I enjoyed listening to the TD Show on illegal moves.

One thing it reminded me about is how rule 11 in the US Chess rulebook, viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25227. To start us off, how about these improvements: 1) incorporated rule 11B into rule 11A and title it something like “Illegal move outside of time pressure”, 2) Move rule 11D1 up to become the new rule 11B, 3) Reword the title of rule 11D from “Illegal move” to “Illegal move penalty”. If these changes are made, the sections of rule 11 would now look like this:

…

I am guessing this would be information for the next version of the rulebook.

Generally rules changes the delegates vote on are actual changes and not just a cosmetic rearrangement.

Cosmetic rearrangements that make the rules easier to find and follow are more the bailiwick of the rulebook editor.

[Micah_Smith]

@jwiewel

@Micah Smith

I enjoyed listening to the TD Show on illegal moves.

One thing it reminded me about is how rule 11 in the US Chess rulebook, viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25227. To start us off, how about these improvements: 1) incorporated rule 11B into rule 11A and title it something like “Illegal move outside of time pressure”, 2) Move rule 11D1 up to become the new rule 11B, 3) Reword the title of rule 11D from “Illegal move” to “Illegal move penalty”. If these changes are made, the sections of rule 11 would now look like this:

…

I am guessing this would be information for the next version of the rulebook.

Generally rules changes the delegates vote on are actual changes and not just a cosmetic rearrangement.

Cosmetic rearrangements that make the rules easier to find and follow are more the bailiwick of the rulebook editor.

If the rulebook editor is allowed to make these types of cosmetic changes, that would be great as it would likely be much easier to get these cosmetic changes done this way.

[Micah_Smith]

It was noted in the show that there is no definition of what an illegal move is in the US Chess rulebook. It would probably be a good idea to define what an illegal move is under US Chess rules, especially since it’s likely to be different than what the definition of an illegal move is under FIDE rules. For example, under FIDE rules using two hands to make a move and pressing the clock without first making a move on the board are considered illegal moves.

Rule 11C in the current edition of the rulebook states one situation that is treated as an illegal move. “If, during a game, one or more pieces have been accidentally displaced and incorrectly replaced, then the displacement shall be treated as an illegal move.” the rest of rule 11C reads “If, during the course of a move, a player inadvertently knocks over one or more pieces, that player must not press the clock until the position has been reestablished. The opponent may press the clock without moving, if necessary, to force the player who knocked over the piece(s) to restore the position on his or her own time. If possible, clocks with move counters should be readjusted. TD TIP: If using increment time control it may not be to a player’s advantage to start the opponent’s clock if the opponent created an illegal position or accidentally displaced pieces. In that case the players may stop or pause the clock until the correct position is reinstated.”

Perhaps all of 11C from the current edition of the rulebook could be incorporated into a rule that defines an illegal move at the beginning of section 11.

Rule 19I also states one situation that is considered as an illegal move in regards to the resumption of an adjournment. It reads “If, upon resumption, the position is set up incorrectly, this is considered an illegal move. If discovered within ten moves of resumption, the position must be corrected. The clock times are not adjusted.” I’m not sure that this should be part of the definition of an “illegal move”.

Also, it would probably be best to incorporate rule 11D (but not 11D1; I’ve already made a suggestion on where to move that) from the current edition of the rulebook into what is currently rule 11A in the current edition of the rulebook.

Also, rule 11I in the current edition of the rulebook could probably be deleted as it is already covered in rule 20M5. Rule 11I already references rule 20M5 by saying “Spectators must not point out illegal moves (20M5), except to the director in a manner neither heard nor noticed by the players.” A little bit of rule 11I could be incorporated into rule 20M5 if necessary.

Also, rule 11E in the current edition of the rulebook could probably be deleted as this is already covered in rule 19I and adjournments are so rare these days there is no need to cover this in two different sections of the rulebook. A little bit of rule 11E could be incorporated into rule 19I if necessary.

Also, it would probably be good to expand 11J from the current edition of the rulebook to include deliberate illegal positions (such as a player who deliberately sets up the starting position of the pieces incorrectly) in addition to deliberate illegal moves.

If these and the other changes I recommended earlier in this thread are done (with a slight change to the titles of a couple of the rules), the sections of rule 11 would now look like this:

11A. Definition of an illegal move.

11A1. Procedure for handling an illegal move outside of time pressure.

11A1a. Director corrects illegal move outside of time pressure. (Variation: Director as witness only.)

11A2. Procedure for handling an illegal move in time pressure.

11B. Incorrect initial position.

11C. Incorrect placement of chessboard.

11D. Deliberate illegal moves or positions.

I will post a complete version of how rule 11 could read with this reorganization.

[Micah_Smith]

Except for the definition of an illegal move (which I will likely need help in defining), here is how section 11 could read if all of my suggestions given above are done, rule 11H in the current edition of the rulebook is incorporated into what is currently rule 11A in the current edition of the rulebook, a little reorganization of rule 11A is done, and the references to rule 16R, No time adjustment for reinstated position, are eliminated since that rule was essentially deleted. The language of the rules could use some work and some additional references and TD Tips would also be useful.

11. Illegal Positions

11A. Definition of an illegal move.

Still needed.

11A1. Procedure for handling an illegal move made outside of time pressure.

If, during a game, it is found that one of either player’s last ten moves was illegal and neither player is in time pressure (11A2), the position shall be reinstated to what it was before the illegal move. A director who witnesses an illegal move being made outside of time pressure shall require the player to replace that move with a legal one. The players do not recover the time used after the illegal move. If a player completes an illegal move by pressing the clock, the standard penalty specified in rule 1C2a applies. If the opponent has completed a move subsequent to the illegal move, the standard penalty shall not apply. Move counters on clocks that have them may be readjusted. The game shall then continue by applying Rule 10, The Touched Piece, to the move replacing the illegal move. If it is found that an illegal move was made prior to each player’s last ten moves or if the position prior to the illegal move can not be reinstated, the illegal move shall stand and the game shall continue. See also 11D, Deliberate illegal moves or positions.

TD TIP: When the illegal move is a king left in check, special care should be taken by the director. All moves, not just the first move, in which a player’s king remains in check should be regarded as illegal. That way, an illegal move will always have occurred within the last half-move; therefore, players cannot argue that the illegal move(s) should stand. Now, go back to the first illegal move that occurred (leaving the king in check). If the moves cannot be reconstructed, go back to a position in which the king is in check, so that the king can get out of check. In complicated cases like this the director has a lot of discretion. No player should gain an unfair advantage for deliberate illegal moves, or for inadvertent ones, which were deliberately not pointed out. Remember that the clock times will not be re-adjusted; however, move counters may need to be reset to the proper move number.

TD TIP: A player should make sure to claim an illegal move made by his opponent before completing his next move, in order to be eligible to receive the additional time.

11A1 Variation. Director as witness only.

In an event in which most games are not watched by directors, a director may refrain from correcting all illegal moves he or she may notice but simply serve as a witness should one of the players point out the illegal move before ten more moves have been made (11A1). If used, this variation must be applied consistently; i.e., a director may not require players to correct illegal moves when witnessed in some cases but not in others. This variation does not need to be announced in advance.

11A2. Procedure for handling an illegal move made in time pressure.

Time pressure is defined as a situation where either player has less than five minutes left in a time control and the time control does not include an increment or delay of 30 seconds or more. A director should not call attention to illegal moves in time pressure, only the players may make that claim. If, during the game, in time pressure, a player’s claim that one of either player’s last two moves was illegal is upheld by the TD, the position shall be reinstated to what it was before the illegal move and the procedure in rule 11A1 shall be followed. See also 11D, Deliberate illegal moves or positions.

TD TIP: When the illegal move is a king left in check see the first TD TIP after rule 11A1.

11B. Incorrect initial position.

If, before the completion of Black’s 10th move, it is found that the initial position of the pieces was incorrect, or that the game began with the colors reversed, then the game shall be annulled and a new game played. However, the players shall begin the new game with their clocks still reflecting the elapsed time each player used in the annulled game; however, move counters on clocks that have them may be readjusted. If the error is discovered after the completion of Black’s 10th move, the game shall continue.

11C. Incorrect placement of chessboard.

If, during a game, it is found that the board has been placed contrary to 2C, Placement, which requires a white square in the nearer corner to the right of each player, then the position reached shall be transferred to a board correctly placed and the game continued.

11D. Deliberate illegal moves or positions.

If a player intentionally makes illegal moves or creates an illegal position, the director may impose penalties. See also 1C2, Director discretion; 21F, Player requests for rulings; and 21K, Use of director’s power.

[timjust]

@jwiewel

@Micah Smith

I enjoyed listening to the TD Show on illegal moves.

1. incorporated rule 11B into rule 11A and title it something like “Illegal move outside of time pressure”,

…

I am guessing this would be information for the next version of the rulebook.

Generally rules changes the delegates vote on are actual changes and not just a cosmetic rearrangement.

Cosmetic rearrangements that make the rules easier to find and follow are more the bailiwick of the rulebook editor.

When incorporating one rule into another (ala 11A and 11B) is suggested, that seems to be more than just a cosmetic rearrangement. When wholesale changes proposed here have been made in the past one edition of the rulebook ends and another is printed–like from edition 4 to 5.

[Micah_Smith]

Tim,

In the section on illegal moves, there are a number of references to rule 16R but rule 16R has essentially been deleted. Since you told me you have control over the “see also’s”, how about deleting all references to 16R?

Also at the end of rule 16B2c, it references “42D, Digital clocks; and 42F, Delay clock preferable in sudden death.” In the first case it should say 42B instead of 42D and in the second case it should say 42D instead of 42F (and even better would be to delete this reference since 42D has essentially been deleted).

[timjust]

@Micah Smith

Tim,

In the section on illegal moves, there are a number of references to rule 16R but rule 16R has essentially been deleted. Since you told me you have control over the “see also’s”, how about deleting all references to 16R?

Also at the end of rule 16B2c, it references “42D, Digital clocks; and 42F, Delay clock preferable in sudden death.” In the first case it should say 42B instead of 42D and in the second case it should say 42D instead of 42F (and even better would be to delete this reference since 42D has essentially been deleted).

The 16R reference was eliminated in all versions of the 7th edition. It has not been yet posted on-line.

Since chapter 10 (Internet chess) appears to be headed for a major change, the eliminated 16R reference and the TD Tips you suggested will all get published on-line when chapter 10 gets formatted for paperback/e-book publication.

I will check out the other references you mentioned–thanks for the heads up.

[Micah_Smith]

@Tim Just

@Micah Smith

Tim,

In the section on illegal moves, there are a number of references to rule 16R but rule 16R has essentially been deleted. Since you told me you have control over the “see also’s”, how about deleting all references to 16R?

Also at the end of rule 16B2c, it references “42D, Digital clocks; and 42F, Delay clock preferable in sudden death.” In the first case it should say 42B instead of 42D and in the second case it should say 42D instead of 42F (and even better would be to delete this reference since 42D has essentially been deleted).

The 16R reference was eliminated in all versions of the 7th edition. It has not been yet posted on-line.

The “see also” 16R references weren’t eliminated from the 2019 print copy of the 7th edition of the rulebook that I have.

[Smythe_Dakota]

@Micah Smith

It was noted in the show that there is no definition of what an illegal move is in the US Chess rulebook. …

I find it even more strange that there is no definition of an illegal position either, even though it’s the name of U.S. Chess rule 11. I think this same flaw exists in the FIDE rules.

It would be easy enough to define an “illegal move” as a move not in accordance with the Laws of Chess (FIDE) or rules 6 through 8 (U.S. Chess).

But then of course somebody might point out that there is no definition of “move” either.

A “move” could be defined as “the transfer of a single piece from one square to another, possibly accompanied by either (a) the removal of a piece from the board, and/or (b) the replacement of a piece on the board with a piece not on the board, or (c) the transfer of a second piece from one square to another, as provided in rules 6 through 8 below.” Or something along those lines.

A couple of years ago FIDE decided to define a bunch of other things as “illegal moves”, such as knocking over a piece and pressing the clock without replacing the piece, or pushing a pawn to the eighth rank and pressing the clock without replacing the pawn with the promotion piece, or making two moves without the opponent making a move, or pressing the clock without making a move, etc. IMHO this was a bad decision on FIDE’s part. These (and other similar) actions should have been called “illegal procedures” instead of “illegal moves”.

One reason I think this was a bad call by FIDE is that it flies in the face of another recent change in the FIDE rules, namely, that a single illegal move (even in blitz) does not result in an immediate loss, but rather a time penalty, and that a second illegal move by the same player in the same game does lose the game, even in regular or rapid, not just blitz.

I would hate to be the arbiter who is required to forfeit a player because he has knocked over a piece on move 15, after having made and corrected an earlier illegal move on move 10. Yet it seems that the new FIDE rule would require this. It should be up to the arbiter’s discretion whether to count such an “illegal procedure” toward the maximum allowable “illegal move count” of 1.

Bill Smythe

[timjust]

@Micah Smith

@Tim Just

@Micah Smith

Tim,

In the section on illegal moves, there are a number of references to rule 16R but rule 16R has essentially been deleted. Since you told me you have control over the “see also’s”, how about deleting all references to 16R?

Also at the end of rule 16B2c, it references “42D, Digital clocks; and 42F, Delay clock preferable in sudden death.” In the first case it should say 42B instead of 42D and in the second case it should say 42D instead of 42F (and even better would be to delete this reference since 42D has essentially been deleted).

The 16R reference was eliminated in all versions of the 7th edition. It has not been yet posted on-line.

The “see also” 16R references weren’t eliminated from the 2019 print copy of the 7th edition of the rulebook that I have.

That is correct. The elimination will appear in future printed copies of the 7th edition. Re-printing a paper copy for minor corrections hardly ever happens in any book. It would have been corrected in the on-line free downloadable copy had it not been for the upcoming major chapter 10 re-write (being done by others, not moi). When it comes to major changes we are aiming for the on-line and paper/e-book copies to be alike. I would humbly suggest that minor stuff like this 16R reference impacts very few. Heck, there were minor flaws from the 5th edition that have hung around for years (well beyond that editions publication), despite numerous proof readers–no one noticed nor did it impact anyone. We appreciate your efforts in finding these flaws. We will get them fixed in time. Thanks.

[timjust]

@Tim Just

@Micah Smith

@Tim Just

@Micah Smith

Tim,

In the section on illegal moves, there are a number of references to rule 16R but rule 16R has essentially been deleted. Since you told me you have control over the “see also’s”, how about deleting all references to 16R?

Also at the end of rule 16B2c, it references “42D, Digital clocks; and 42F, Delay clock preferable in sudden death.” In the first case it should say 42B instead of 42D and in the second case it should say 42D instead of 42F (and even better would be to delete this reference since 42D has essentially been deleted).

The 16R reference was eliminated in all versions of the 7th edition. It has not been yet posted on-line.

The “see also” 16R references weren’t eliminated from the 2019 print copy of the 7th edition of the rulebook that I have.

That is correct. The elimination will appear in future printed copies of the 7th edition. Re-printing a paper copy for minor corrections hardly ever happens in any book. It would have been corrected in the on-line free downloadable copy had it not been for the upcoming major chapter 10 re-write (being done by others, not moi). When it comes to major changes we are aiming for the on-line and paper/e-book copies to be alike. I would humbly suggest that minor stuff like this 16R reference impacts very few. Heck, there were minor flaws from the 5th edition that have hung around for years (well beyond that editions publication), despite numerous proof readers–no one noticed nor did it impact anyone. We appreciate your efforts in finding these flaws. We will get them fixed in time. Thanks.

I made corrections to the references in 16B2c as follows:

“For more information on delay or increment clocks see Chapter 4, Equipment Standards; 5F, Standard Timer; 35F5, Special clock;42B, Digital clocks; 42D, Delay clock preferable in sudden death; and 42E, Increment clock preferable in increment time controls.”

These references are meaningless in the on-line versions because they point to chapter 4, which is not available on-line. The print and e-book copies when printed again will reflect this change. Rule 42 changed the names of some of the sub-rules but the references did not. Fixed–thanks again for the heads up.

[kevin_bachler]

@Tim Just

Fixed–thanks again for the heads up.

Micah has become a rulebook paladin, or Paladin. Wonder if he has a knight on his business card?

[Micah_Smith]

@Tim Just

I made corrections to the references in 16B2c as follows:

“For more information on delay or increment clocks see Chapter 4, Equipment Standards; 5F, Standard Timer; 35F5, Special clock;42B, Digital clocks; 42D, Delay clock preferable in sudden death; and 42E, Increment clock preferable in increment time controls.”

These references are meaningless in the on-line versions because they point to chapter 4, which is not available on-line. The print and e-book copies when printed again will reflect this change. Rule 42 changed the names of some of the sub-rules but the references did not. Fixed–thanks again for the heads up.

Thanks Tim.

I missed two other references in this section that were wrong. It says “42B, Signaling devices; 42C, Move counters”. The first should have said 42B1 and the second 42B2. Good job for noticing those and eliminating those references (since just having a reference to 42B is sufficient) I also like the addition of 42E to the list.

Since the section was talking about digital clocks in general (which includes those without delay and increment capability), it might be good to change the wording from “For more information on delay or increment clocks” to “For more information on digital clocks”.

Also, adding a reference to 5G might be beneficial as well.

I wonder if having the reference to 42D is necessary since when you go to rule 42D, all it says is “See rule 5F2, Standard timer for delay time controls” and there is already a reference to 5F.

[Micah_Smith]

The wording in rule 11D1 that says “with no adjustment to the time on the clocks” was deleted effective 1-1-20 but the wording in 11H that says “The time on the clocks shall not be adjusted” was not deleted. Why wasn’t the wording in 11H deleted?

[jwiewel]

@Micah Smith

The wording in rule 11D1 that says “with no adjustment to the time on the clocks” was deleted effective 1-1-20 but the wording in 11H that says “The time on the clocks shall not be adjusted” was not deleted. Why wasn’t the wording in 11H deleted?

It wasn’t simply deleted in 11D, but changed to refer to the standard penalty.

As far as why a change wasn’t made to 11H? That is a function of rules only being changeable by the delegates. I am guessing that the ADM to change 11D did not mention 11H and thus the delegates did not weigh in on 11H.

The original reason for the “not be adjusted” phrase was to prevent people from deciding on move 25 (in a 40/90 first time control) that move 20 was illegal and adding back 20% of the time used because 20% of the moves needed to be replayed (some players and TDs really did think that type of adjustment would need to be done). The original intent of that phrase was not intended to be seen as negating the standard penalty.

[wilecoyote]

@jwiewel

The original reason for the “not be adjusted” phrase was to prevent people from deciding on move 25 (in a 40/90 first time control) that move 20 was illegal and adding back 20% of the time used because 20% of the moves needed to be replayed (some players and TDs really did think that type of adjustment would need to be done). The original intent of that phrase was not intended to be seen as negating the standard penalty.

For those whose history doesn’t go back so far, the restoration of the time on the clock proportional to how many moves had been made after the illegal move was the rule back in the days of the third edition of the Official Rules of Chess, rule I.14.M. (My, my, back then the rule book was all of 196 pages, including ten pages on notation (including algebraic, descriptive, and international correspondence notation), eight pages of “tournament director checklist”, ten pages of FIDE information, and an eight-page index. How did we ever manage to run tournaments with such a skimpy rule book? )

[Smythe_Dakota]

@wilecoyote

… For those whose history doesn’t go back so far …

How about the first (Morrison) edition, which claimed that a player whose color sequence after 4 rounds had been BWWB would be due black in round 5, in order to restore the color sequence he started with.

Bill Smythe

[BobMessenger]

This topic is a spin-off from The TD Show.

[Allen]

@wilecoyote

How did we ever manage to run tournaments with such a skimpy rule book? )

Common sense maybe?