Triple repetition question

I want to confirm that I’m about to answer a question correctly.

Let’s say someone wants to claim a draw by repetition but his own scoresheet is incomplete. However, his opponent’s is correct. I’ve got someone asking if their scoresheet can be used against them like this.

The closest I found is that your scoresheet can’t be used against you to determine a loss, but I didn’t find anything about it not being referenced to determine a repetition draw (even if the person with the good scoresheet doesn’t want a draw). And since scoresheets are owned by the tournament, I don’t see that the player could withhold his scoresheet or object to it being used.

Am I correct on that one?

And as long as I’m asking questions about draws. I’m reviewing some of my notes, and I see an entry that says that if you aren’t using a time delay, then you can only claim insufficient material if you have less than five minutes left. I just looked through the 7th edition and didn’t see that stipulation. And I can’t imagine the purpose of that rule.

Is the claimant’s scoresheet adequate to demonstrate the triple occurrence?

No, he’s relying on his opponent’s scoresheet.

14C9 requires the claimant to have a scoresheet adequate to demonstrate the validity of the claim.

But consider 15D and 15E, both of which allow use of the opponent’s scoresheet in keeping score.

If the claimant had borrowed the opponent’s scoresheet, caught up on moves, and only then made the claim we would have a different scenario, right?

If the claimant makes the claim before doing so then the claimant has not met the necessary conditions for a triple occurrence claim.

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I believe that the claimant can ask to borrow the opponent’s scoresheet. The rules advise the opponent to permit it but don’t require it.

Borrow so he can update his own - on his own time.

Yes … but I think the opponent has the option whether or not to share the scoresheet. Nothing compels him to do it.

The tournament director can compel the player to share the score sheet (15D3). I would not do so after a claim was already made, but would do so if no claim had been made so long as nothing extraordinary suggested otherwise (for instance, excessive requests).

True – the scoresheets are owned by the tournament.

When players use their own scorebooks or devices like the MonRoi (is anyone still using it?) the tournament obviously does not own those, but their use is with the forbearance of the tournament and any player using them must make them accessible to the opponent in equivalent ways to how the tournament-supplied scoresheets are accessible.

I once posed this precise question to Carol Jarecki and she agreed with Mike’s solution. If the player only asked after making the claim and realizing their own scoresheet was inadequate, then the claim would be denied on this move but if, after updating the scoresheet, they were able to make a valid claim later, that would be allowed.

Sorry, I did not see this until later. (Is it possible you added this to your original post?)

In any event, I don’t see anything that requires that and it seems like it would be a silly requirement anyway. If you have a legitimate claim, you would merely have to wait until your clock show five minutes or less. Why wait?

You might have confused the claim of insufficient material with the claim of insufficient losing chances in sudden death (Variation 14H in the 7th edition), which requires the claiming player to have two minutes or less of playing time.

14H1. Explanation.
This procedure is not available for games in which a clock is being used with either the time delay or the increment properly set, whether the game begins with such a clock or one is added during the game (14H2a). If such a clock is not being used, or such a clock is being used without the time delay or increment feature in operation, the following procedure is available.

In a sudden death time control, a player on the move with two minutes or less of remaining time may stop the clock and may make a claim of insufficient losing chances.

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Yes, that’s what I remember … thank you.
Chuck

I didn’t realize my opponents could refuse to let me see her scoresheet on my time.

I guess I can stop the clock and ask the arbiter to compel?

Yes, although the director is not required to require the opponent to show you their scoresheet and if you keep asking every move or two might penalize you.

15D3. Compliance.
The opponent is urged to comply with such a request, but this is not mandatory. If the opponent denies the request, the player may stop both clocks and see a director. A director who agrees that the request is appropriate shall instruct the opponent to lend the player the scoresheet. The opponent may not refuse as all scoresheets belong to the organizers. See also 15G, Ownership of scoresheets.

15D4. Excessive requests.
Repeated requests of this type may be deemed by the director to be inappropriate, and the offender may be penalized under 20G, Annoying behavior prohibited.

Rule is poorly written (reminds me of the NFL rulebook) as both the player and TD could refuse your one and only request and you will not be able to make a draw claim. It seems like it is trying to make sure one opponent doesn’t annoy another to get an advantage, but this just creates another edge case.

Thankfully tournament experience has shown nobody refuses your ask when your clock is burning. I also would never refuse a chance for my opponent to burn their clock when they ask for mine, I just feel bad for them due to my poor handwriting.

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A TD who makes such a ruling is likely to have the ruling overturned by appeal.