The TD Tip after rule “42E1. recommended function of an increment clock.” on page 176 of the 7th edition of the US Chess rulebook starts out by saying:
"TD TIP: Some clocks add time at the beginning of the move, hence when a player is not on the move, the total time for the next move is the time displayed plus the increment. Technically this is no different than adding time at the beginning of a move, except that the total time for the next move is that which is displayed plus the increment.
Is anyone else confused by these two sentences like I am? Shouldn’t the second sentence say “end” instead of “beginning”?
As far as I know, all clocks physically add the increment time or delay time to a player’s side of the clock at the moment when that player completes his previous move by pressing the clock. The only issue is whether the clock also adds the increment time or delay time for the first move of the game, either during the clock-setting process or immediately after the clock is started at move 1.
I suppose it might be conceivable that a clock might be designed to add the increment time or delay time to a player’s clock only at the moment when the opponent has completed his move by pressing the clock, but I’ve never seen a clock that does it that way, and I hope I never do.
It’s possible that the author of the TD Tip, having read all the forum discussion about the desirability of adding the increment time or delay time also at move 1, confused this issue with the (apparently non-existent) possibility I described in the previous paragraph.
To discuss the real issue instead of the non-existent issue, the TD Tip ought to say something like this:
TD TIP: In increment mode, or in the Bronstein version of delay mode, a clock should also add the increment time or delay time for move 1 at the start of the game, either during the clock-setting process or as soon as the clock is started at move 1. If a clock is in use that does not properly implement this feature, the same effect can be implemented manually by simply adding the increment time or delay time to the main time when setting the clock.
The Z-Mart clocks add the increment this way and the Saitek Competition Pro has an option to add the increment (not sure about Bronstein delay) in this way.
I agree that a TD TIP like this would be good to have and I would add an example to make it clear. Putting the TD TIP somewhere in rule 5 or 16 would be good.
How about that – additional TD TIPs to explain a previous TD TIP:
[b]TD TIP: For example, suppose the time control is G/90 inc/30. Just after white’s clock is started at move 1, both clock faces should read 1:30:30. If, after white’s clock is first started, the clock faces read only 1:30:00, the clock has not implemented the move-1 feature properly. On such a clock, the move-1 feature can be implemented manually by setting the clock initially for 1:30:30 instead of 1:30:00.
TD TIP: In tournaments where the organizer furnishes clocks, the organizer should take care to set the clocks in the proper way according to the clock brand.
TD TIP: In tournaments where the players furnish the clocks, the adjustment described above should be made before the game has started. The TD reserves the right to decline any request for such an adjustment if the game has already started.[/b]
These are good TD Tips except in the first TD TIP, the Z-Mart and Saitek Pro (if it’s in one of the add-before modes) don’t do it that way. The increment time for move one on White’s clock will be added to the display when White’s clock is started for move one but the increment time for Blacks first move won’t be displayed until White has made his first move and pressed the clock. (This is assuming seconds are being displayed on the screen. These clock’s don’t always display seconds).
I apologize for my earlier speculation (about 7 posts ago) that the author of that TD Tip might have been confusing two issues. I still find it astounding, though, that any clock (like the Z-Mart) would handle increment the way it does. But given that it does, I concede that that issue is a more important topic for a TD Tip than is the (relatively minor) issue of whether the clock adds increment for move 1.
The last game I played my opponents clock added the time after the move. I received my 1 minute of added time after my opponent made his third move, not after my second move. I do not know what brand of clock this was, and neither did my opponent. It did closely resemble a chronos.
Whatever clock it was, if it was in a mode that displayed only hours and minutes (h:mm), then the first 30-second addition might not be noticed, and maybe not even the second, either.
It just comes from the semantics what it means to add time “before” or “after” the move. Sure, technically time is always added after the move, i.e. when the clock is pressed upon completion of the move. But, general terminology uses before and after to differentiate the two types.
before - increment is added to the base time before move 1 after - increment is not added to the base time before move 1
The TD tip just reflects this standard terminology. One could certainly argue that the standard phrasing is poor. But, that’s what used.
You sure about this? This doesn’t match my recollection of the Saitek Pro. It’s been a little while since I regularly used one. But, from memory, it does it just like described above (normal usage). There is the option to set increment to “before” or “after” though (as in the standard terminology). When I get a chance I’ll check it. But, I do find it hard to believe that it doesn’t add the increment immediately after pressing the clock to end your turn.
I can’t speak for the Z-Mart clocks. Though I find that hard to believe as well.
You can set it to do it either way on the Saitek Pro and the Z-Mart clocks do it the way I described. To see an example of the ZMF II clock doing this, see youtube.com/watch?v=QhL75SKFLsI (jumpt to 1:55 in the video).
That’s what I thought, too, until Micah Smith came forth with the astounding news that there is actually one clock (Z-Mart) and half of another (Saitek, depending on mode) that adds the increment to a player’s time when his opponent presses the clock.
So, apparently there are actually two meanings of “add before” vs “add after”, depending on who is talking. And these two conflicting meanings are generating a lot of confusion.
In this post I am going to use different terminology for the two different pairs of meanings. I’ll use:
"add before " – the clock adds increment to a player’s time when his opponent presses the clock.
“add after” – the clock adds increment to a player’s time when the player presses the clock.
“add for move 1” – the clock adds increment for move 1.
“does not add for move 1” – the clock does not add increment for move 1.
That’s what I thought, too, until a couple of days ago. Now I realize that the TD tip intended “add before” and “add after” in the first sense of the phrases – in which case, the phrasing is perfectly good (except for the typo pointed out by Micah).
Furthermore, the two pairs of definitions are (somewhat) related to each other. A clock that “adds before” is almost certain to also “add for move 1”, since with “add before” the add is triggered by the starting of the player’s own clock – and that would include the starting that begins the game. By contrast, a clock that “adds after” has no natural inclination to “add for move 1”, so the initial add needs to be done manually, perhaps even awkwardly.
Micah is usually right in these kinds of matters. And, in the case of the Saitek Pro, the clock lets you decide between “add before” and “add after”, and probably uses your choice to also decide between “add for move 1” and not.
I too find it astounding, but apparently it’s true.
This is correct. See the notes about the Saitek Pro in my “Setting the popular digital clocks for one or two time controls with an increment” document at pdxchess.org/wp-content/uploads/ … rement.pdf
The Bronstein and similar modes like bonus add the delay time only after the player presses the clock. People have noted that a player using the Bronstein/bonus mode and flags will have less time than one with delay as he has not gotten the delay yet. Adding the delay to the starting time for each player insures they get the delay when flagging. As noted, some clocks will automatically add the delay without showing it on the clock face. If your clock is one that does not, the tip wants you to add the delay to the starting T/C so it takes effect before the start of the game. Example:
I verified the DGT North American adds the bonus time to the start of the control. I set a time control of 14 (bonus manual set) for a control of 1:00.00 for both sides. I set the bonus for 0.05. The display shows 1:00 (seconds hidden) I then start White’s clock and pause after about 2 seconds. I then review the time. White has 1:00.03 Black has 1:00.05. As you can see, the clock added the bonus to the main control without the setter’s action. You don’t see the time added to the control as it does not display seconds.
An earlier poster pointed out that some clocks (the Zmart and some versions of the Saitek) wait even longer before adding the increment time or delay time. They wait until the opponent presses the clock on the following move. This clock behavior sends shudders up the spines of many, including me. I finally realized that the TD Tip in question addresses these shudders, rather than dealing with the (comparatively insignificant) question of whether increment or delay applies to move 1. These are two separate issues.
Yes, of course any clock that displays only h:mm at the start of the game cannot display the increment or Bronstein time at first, until the clock goes into mm:ss display mode, which typically happens at the 1-hour mark or the 20-minute mark or the 10-minute mark or the 5-minute mark, depending on the clock brand.
When I last played a rated game all clocks were analog. Yes it was a long time ago; thirty plus years. When the TD started a round the player of the black pieces would reach up and start white’s clock by stopping his. This seems like just the time to give white the delay or increment. I’m sorry if this interruption from the deep past just confuses a situation that seems confused enough.
Well, you have to do as the Romans do, i.e. you need to know what the clock does.
For example, on the Chronos (at least on some models), if you use the Bronstein version of delay, the clock adds the 5 seconds (or whatever) to both sides when white’s clock is first started. But, in increment mode (unless this has been corrected in recent models), the Chronos does not add time at all for the first move. This means that, if you want to be precisely correct, you should add the increment time manually when you set the clock. For example for G/90 inc/30 you should actually set the clock for G/90:30 inc/30.
The DGT clocks (and some others) do it right. They always add the increment or delay, and they do it even before the first move, i.e. they add the time as soon as the clock is set.