So doesn’t that answer your question? If the clock doesn’t freeze (for whatever reason) they have a rule to cover it.
That rule only applies in certain situations according to the rules.
I’m very confused. I have no wish to be insulting, but I can’t see how this could come up. Could you please come up with an exact sequence of events that would cause a flag fall that is not covered in the Laws of Chess.
Note that FIDE cares nothing for the Official Rules of Chess, so it is foolhardy to extrapolate from 16T or any other U.S. Chess rule/tip to determine anything that might be acceptable in a FIDE event.
Alex Relyea
Both flags are down in a time control that includes increment. The rules don’t state what happens here.
The two rules given below fall under the following: “Guidelines III. Games without increment including Quickplay Finishes” and “III.2.2 These Guidelines shall apply only to standard chess and rapid chess games without increment and not to blitz games.”
III.3.1 If both flags have fallen and it is impossible to establish which flag fell first then:
III.3.1.2 the game is drawn if this occurs in the period of a game in which all remaining moves must be completed.
Not to be pedantic, but this is hardly an exact sequence of events. These are also guidelines, not rules. What was the announcement under III.2.1?
Alex Relyea
6.11 seems clear…
As pointed out, these are “Guidelines”. Also, saying that these guidelines only apply to “xxxx” does not mean that none of them apply to “not xxxx”, just that these are rules that are of special importance to “xxxx”.
I don’t see a rule numbered 6.11 in the Laws of Chess.
fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf
However, that document appears to be an older version of the “Laws”. I found a (presumably) newer revision (dated 2020) that had no mention at all of the “both flags down” scenario in the main rules. It was only mentioned in the Guidelines that Micah quoted. They seem to have deleted 6.11.
Still the way to do It though…
I see nothing in the rules that states that an increment time control of 30 second or more is not considered sudden death. Thus, I wonder if this TD Tip is simply wrong.
That topic is somewhat of a can of worms, because an increment time control can be interpreted in a way that is not sudden death. For example, G/90 inc 30 could be defined as a primary time control of 1 move in 90 minutes (or 1 move in 90:30 if you want the increment “from the beginning”), followed by an endless series of secondary time controls, each being 1 move in 30 seconds (this is in fact the only way to set an increment TC on my old Chronos clock). This is non-intuitive, but it’s mathematically equivalent to the normal way of defining a single sudden death TC with increment. When defined the non-intuitive way, though, it’s not strictly “sudden death” – because there is no TC in which you have to make all of your remaining moves. So the TD Tip is not exactly “wrong” – it’s just using the “other” way of defining the TC.
By the way, I don’t see why this same reasoning wouldn’t work for increments of less than 30 seconds. It could still be defined as an endless series of 1-move time controls. (Unless there’s a rule somewhere that says a secondary TC must allow at least 30 seconds per move)
TD Tips are not rules.
And US Chess rules or TD Tips are not at all relevant for FIDE.
I agree that the same reasoning could be made for increments of less than 30 seconds so why would an increment of 30 seconds or more not be considered sudden death but an increment of less than 30 seconds be considered sudden death?
Perhaps the rulebook should clearly define what sudden death means.
I guess that means scorekeeping is required in quick chess since the only place it says that scorekeeping is not required in quick chess is in a TD Tip.
I understand this. My latest question pertained only to US Chess rules.
TD tips are not rules. But where they exist, should they not be accurate? Micah’s question seems reasonable.
+1
I agree. They should at the very least be consistent with the rules and not contradict them.
+1
As I understand it, that TD Tip was added at the insistence of a former chairman of the Rules Committee, around the time increment started to be used more in US Chess-rated events. He was adamant that 30-second increment should not be considered SD, we heard.
That ties in with the threshold for mandatory scorekeeping, but it makes me scratch my head nonetheless. Granted it would almost never happen that both flags were down in a game with 30-second increment—but if it did happen, I think it should be treated as SD and declared a draw.
Ken Ballou, RIP, who became Rules chair years after the TD Tip appeared in the rulebook, wrote about this in these forums more than once. Ken also thought this situation should be considered SD.
Either the TD Tip should be abolished or the rule should be changed.
I agree.
I think we should just abolish the TD Tip.